Nanook, thank you for the reply. You are very kind. Is the insert a commercial product or is it something that you make? Don't worry, if you want to keep the details of the insert private, I completely understand. 🙂
I think your price is very fair - but I need to play around with my turntable a little before investing money into it. It is a radio shack table that I got for free. I have taken it apart and am trying to mount the spindle and motor on plywood. After I get this task complete, I will tackle the tonearm.
Thank you -
Dan
I think your price is very fair - but I need to play around with my turntable a little before investing money into it. It is a radio shack table that I got for free. I have taken it apart and am trying to mount the spindle and motor on plywood. After I get this task complete, I will tackle the tonearm.
Thank you -
Dan
Hello Nanook,
I searched for the term in the thread by did not find mention of "anti-skate".
Is anti-skate a consideration for this type of tonearm design?
I am new to vinyl and turntables, but my recent experience tell me that it is real.
Just wondering how you handle it in such a design.
I was also interested in building an Altman type tonearm.
Thanks for sharing your design.
Regards,
Vince
I searched for the term in the thread by did not find mention of "anti-skate".
Is anti-skate a consideration for this type of tonearm design?
I am new to vinyl and turntables, but my recent experience tell me that it is real.
Just wondering how you handle it in such a design.
I was also interested in building an Altman type tonearm.
Thanks for sharing your design.
Regards,
Vince
You can add one, but I don't believe it is in the original design.
I am not sure until I try it but, Anti-skate may not be worth employing here as it is extremely variable and dependant on alot of things like the album.
I still havn't decided to use it full time on my tri-planar either.
I am not sure until I try it but, Anti-skate may not be worth employing here as it is extremely variable and dependant on alot of things like the album.
I still havn't decided to use it full time on my tri-planar either.
Anti-skate with weights would be difficult with a povit arm, unless there is another way.
From the sources I have read, pull to the center of the record will happen with every record and tonearm, including linear tracking types.
However, some parts of the record exhibit more pull than others, like in between the cartridge alignment points and at the end of a record. Don't quote me. This is just what I have read.
It would be great if the N219 did not need anti-skate (AS) compensation, but it's unlikely. My logic is that all records spin, pulling from left to right and exerting more force on one side of the groove. When my AS is badly calibrated, I can hear hi-freqency distortion on the right channel and the amplitude is lower. The left channel is exaggerated. I can't imagine how not having some kind of adjustment is possible.
Hopefully, someone can shed some light on this topic.
Thanks,
Vince
From the sources I have read, pull to the center of the record will happen with every record and tonearm, including linear tracking types.
However, some parts of the record exhibit more pull than others, like in between the cartridge alignment points and at the end of a record. Don't quote me. This is just what I have read.
It would be great if the N219 did not need anti-skate (AS) compensation, but it's unlikely. My logic is that all records spin, pulling from left to right and exerting more force on one side of the groove. When my AS is badly calibrated, I can hear hi-freqency distortion on the right channel and the amplitude is lower. The left channel is exaggerated. I can't imagine how not having some kind of adjustment is possible.
Hopefully, someone can shed some light on this topic.
Thanks,
Vince
Skate towards the center is a result of the offset angle. Tends to increase as one goes to the center. Can antiskate help, yes, but generally it is so variable that it is but a crap shoot and if wrong can do just as much damage to the sound. There are many more critical alignments, resonances, and improvements that can make orders of magnitudes of improvements compared to anti skate.
My Magnepan arm used a suspended weight attached to a very fine filament. The filament was then attached to the arm, a sheeve kept the filament in plane with the platter and arm swing. Worked pretty well. Could be implemented on this arm if needed. Look up the arm on vinyl engine and you will see what I mean.
My Magnepan arm used a suspended weight attached to a very fine filament. The filament was then attached to the arm, a sheeve kept the filament in plane with the platter and arm swing. Worked pretty well. Could be implemented on this arm if needed. Look up the arm on vinyl engine and you will see what I mean.
Sorry all, on-going iMac woes...
and hence no timely responses.
There is no anti-skating mechanism used at this time. The arm is around 14 grams in mass (and the Grado cartridges that I use are approximately 5 grams), with the tracking force (VTF) of about 1.75 grams. The anti-skating adjustment would be very small. AFAIK, anti-skating is directly proportional to the VTF. I have used a small twist in the wires leading out of the tonearm to "adjust": anti-skating. YMMV.
and hence no timely responses.
There is no anti-skating mechanism used at this time. The arm is around 14 grams in mass (and the Grado cartridges that I use are approximately 5 grams), with the tracking force (VTF) of about 1.75 grams. The anti-skating adjustment would be very small. AFAIK, anti-skating is directly proportional to the VTF. I have used a small twist in the wires leading out of the tonearm to "adjust": anti-skating. YMMV.
Glad to see you can borrow your daughters again.
Your comment is correct. VTF plays a strong role. In general it is the drag on the needle creating a force vector that doesn't point to the pivot as a result of the cartridge being offset for alignment. Linear trackers don't see this force to anywhere the degree. The friction varies with the each pressing, type of vinyl, dirt, etc. so it tends to be highly variable to each album and VERY difficult to get right if there is such a thing for anti skate.
Your comment is correct. VTF plays a strong role. In general it is the drag on the needle creating a force vector that doesn't point to the pivot as a result of the cartridge being offset for alignment. Linear trackers don't see this force to anywhere the degree. The friction varies with the each pressing, type of vinyl, dirt, etc. so it tends to be highly variable to each album and VERY difficult to get right if there is such a thing for anti skate.
Magnepan Unitrac AS scheme.
Dave,
the Magnepan scheme is very simple, and would be very easy to do if the need arises. Also I think one ought to consider the amount of tracking error as contributing factor (as you state). It seems to me that anti-skating must take into consideration the O/S of the cartridge, and the tracking error. In 12" + arms, the tracking error is not "zero", but is a order of magnitude less than say a 9" arm (OK maybe a gross overstatement, but none would disagree that a 12" arm has less tracking error than a 9" one). Or consider many of the arm types where the headshell is adjusted continuously while the record plays. (Linear trackers, the Garrard "Zero" arms, the arms that rely on the Thales circle come to mind).
There may still be a minor force exerted to one side of the record groove, and therefore some skating will occur. All we can hope to do is to minimize the tracking errors, the VTF errors, and any skating errors.
To me the only way to completely eliminate all of these is to create an optical tonearm that does not function in the digital realm (time and/or frequency domains). Basically a low energy laser shone onto the surface of a record, and the reflection must then be directly converted to an analog voltage. The analog voltage may then need to be processed (again using analog equalization and /or amplification ).
Dave,
the Magnepan scheme is very simple, and would be very easy to do if the need arises. Also I think one ought to consider the amount of tracking error as contributing factor (as you state). It seems to me that anti-skating must take into consideration the O/S of the cartridge, and the tracking error. In 12" + arms, the tracking error is not "zero", but is a order of magnitude less than say a 9" arm (OK maybe a gross overstatement, but none would disagree that a 12" arm has less tracking error than a 9" one). Or consider many of the arm types where the headshell is adjusted continuously while the record plays. (Linear trackers, the Garrard "Zero" arms, the arms that rely on the Thales circle come to mind).
There may still be a minor force exerted to one side of the record groove, and therefore some skating will occur. All we can hope to do is to minimize the tracking errors, the VTF errors, and any skating errors.
To me the only way to completely eliminate all of these is to create an optical tonearm that does not function in the digital realm (time and/or frequency domains). Basically a low energy laser shone onto the surface of a record, and the reflection must then be directly converted to an analog voltage. The analog voltage may then need to be processed (again using analog equalization and /or amplification ).
I can confirm Stu's comments on VTF - most transcription arms in the range of 12" effective length and tracking at 2gms or higher do not even implement anti-skating. I've found in experimenting with the SME 3012 Series II (which does offer anti-skating compensation) that in fact anti-skating is not required at all with a Zu/Denon DL-103 cartridge tracking at 2.6gms, and on the 3009 Series II arm I use 1gm of anti-skating at the same VTF. (It sounds noticeably better than at 2.5gms anti-skating.)
I just ordered a Schick 12" arm for my table and have listened to several tables with this arm, no anti-skating at all on this arm and it isn't needed give the low compliance high VTF cartridges it is designed for.
I just ordered a Schick 12" arm for my table and have listened to several tables with this arm, no anti-skating at all on this arm and it isn't needed give the low compliance high VTF cartridges it is designed for.
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Grado Carts for the most part do not like bias (anti-skate) added.
Skating is a result of headshell and horizonal bearing offset (to an imaginary staright line) and the mass difference R/L to that line. Friction is the second part of the issue. The higher the friction the lower the skating forces. Gravity can never be dismissed...it is always trying to act upon the arm. If the gravity cannot work completely on a downforce, the energy will be applied then to a side force.....the side force of course is the offset. the greater the offset mass and angle, the greater the initial skating force.
Is there any undersirable skating force visible when the needle is dropped at certain points on the record? Does it sit square etc or move in/out near the (smooth) run out groove? Etc., all that kind of talk.
I'm pleased I came accross this thread as I drew up a very similar arm design ages ago but never got around to making it.
I've since set a friend on with building the wand etc and then I found this. Mine incorporates anti skating though, or at least it does on paper (and it's a shorter arm), but if anti skate isn't needed then it isn't needed.
Well done.
I'm pleased I came accross this thread as I drew up a very similar arm design ages ago but never got around to making it.
I've since set a friend on with building the wand etc and then I found this. Mine incorporates anti skating though, or at least it does on paper (and it's a shorter arm), but if anti skate isn't needed then it isn't needed.
Well done.
Nanook, how I can contact you? Can't find your email address. I want to order your complete arm, is this possible (with wires etc.)? I live in Ukraine and right now using Lenco L75. Hope your arm will fit with Nagaoka MP 100 cartridge well.
Thanks!
Thanks!
all, well I guess the shoe is about to drop.
Seems a few are asking for complete arms.
For any wanting to contact me direct, just click on my name, or do a search for "Nanook" in members list.
I prefer not to list my email in forums, but will accept emails if in the subject line you put "from XXXX of diyaudio" or similar.
All of the "beta arm testers" arms are made. I'll provide PayPal details in the vendors forum or in direct email to each to pay for shipping.
Regarding complete arms, I have to really set a price, but will do so shortly. The goal of my "semi"-commercial venture is to allow those that are new to analog to purchase a tonearm without spending a bunch of money on one. I truly believe that the cost of a tonearm is the largest stumbling block for many. If, after you build/buy and receive the tonearm stuff and feel it can be improved please do. I know the "commercial version" may differ in a few details, and I am hoping to improve on the fit and finish.
The arm-shafts themselves will either increase or decrease slightly, to accommodate a more commonly available diameter and drill bits.
Seems a few are asking for complete arms.
For any wanting to contact me direct, just click on my name, or do a search for "Nanook" in members list.
I prefer not to list my email in forums, but will accept emails if in the subject line you put "from XXXX of diyaudio" or similar.
All of the "beta arm testers" arms are made. I'll provide PayPal details in the vendors forum or in direct email to each to pay for shipping.
Regarding complete arms, I have to really set a price, but will do so shortly. The goal of my "semi"-commercial venture is to allow those that are new to analog to purchase a tonearm without spending a bunch of money on one. I truly believe that the cost of a tonearm is the largest stumbling block for many. If, after you build/buy and receive the tonearm stuff and feel it can be improved please do. I know the "commercial version" may differ in a few details, and I am hoping to improve on the fit and finish.
The arm-shafts themselves will either increase or decrease slightly, to accommodate a more commonly available diameter and drill bits.
Thanks for reply, but I still can't find your address in your public profile. Can you drop me PM or write me directly dmitry.belitsky[at]gmail.com?
I am not sure I really need complete arm, it will depend on price differences with kit. And what is included in kit. And I had wish to write you via email with all this questions.
Anyway, I hope to hear from you soon. Thanks.
Just click on "Nanook" above his moniker and a dialog box will pop up with an option to send a PM..
all, well I guess the shoe is about to drop.
Seems a few are asking for complete arms.
For any wanting to contact me direct, just click on my name, or do a search for "Nanook" in members list.
I prefer not to list my email in forums, but will accept emails if in the subject line you put "from XXXX of diyaudio" or similar.
All of the "beta arm testers" arms are made. I'll provide PayPal details in the vendors forum or in direct email to each to pay for shipping.
Regarding complete arms, I have to really set a price, but will do so shortly. The goal of my "semi"-commercial venture is to allow those that are new to analog to purchase a tonearm without spending a bunch of money on one. I truly believe that the cost of a tonearm is the largest stumbling block for many. If, after you build/buy and receive the tonearm stuff and feel it can be improved please do. I know the "commercial version" may differ in a few details, and I am hoping to improve on the fit and finish.
The arm-shafts themselves will either increase or decrease slightly, to accommodate more commonly available part sizes (non-critical) and tooling (more critical).
Seems a few are asking for complete arms.
For any wanting to contact me direct, just click on my name, or do a search for "Nanook" in members list.
I prefer not to list my email in forums, but will accept emails if in the subject line you put "from XXXX of diyaudio" or similar.
All of the "beta arm testers" arms are made. I'll provide PayPal details in the vendors forum or in direct email to each to pay for shipping.
Regarding complete arms, I have to really set a price, but will do so shortly. The goal of my "semi"-commercial venture is to allow those that are new to analog to purchase a tonearm without spending a bunch of money on one. I truly believe that the cost of a tonearm is the largest stumbling block for many. If, after you build/buy and receive the tonearm stuff and feel it can be improved please do. I know the "commercial version" may differ in a few details, and I am hoping to improve on the fit and finish.
The arm-shafts themselves will either increase or decrease slightly, to accommodate more commonly available part sizes (non-critical) and tooling (more critical).
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Stew, your PM actually doesn't work - you need to go into your CP and change your preferences to allow members to send you PMs. Clicking your name and selecting "send private message to" results in a message that says you don't accept PMs. No one here can contact you privately at the moment.
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