Agree how? That good things are immpossible, and no one with out a PHD should ever attempt to be creative? All I've done here is present scientific data and enthusiasm, and all these people have done is state conjecture and false assumptions. What have I said that was wrong or immpossible? Name one thing (not 12 at a time) and I will show you my scientific data. If you question that data I will share my experiences that reassure me that it is correct. What I can't deal with is when I share a design and I am bombarded with, not questions, but acusations and criticizms not based on any experience but rather on a lack of such and doubt of my skills. One cannot be expected to present proof of everything they know when posting an idea. It's like telling a physist that he can't prove that the square root of 9 is three so his theories are bunk. I have been studying this stuff for over 12 years now and people keep assuming that I just decided I like speakers last month and went out and designed some. The things I am trying to share are the results of my considerable lifes work at this point. I don't know everything by a longshot but I'm willing to bet I know at least as much as anyone else my age on this entire forum. So I'm not asking people to treat me like a god or even a guru, but rather give me the respect I deserve for all the work I have done and all the things I have read and learned from experience. And don't assume that I haven't considred something simply because I didn't mention it. The fact is this is potentially the best performing speaker driver I have ever encountered and without a doubt the best for the price. If you don't think so, either go away, or ask constructive questions and offer more knowledge, not just your negative discouraging doubts.
Why can't I read your posts? I find it comical that alternate opinions get people soo bent out of shape.
I've got something to add......go back and inspect the graphs you posted on page 3 I believe, you'll see that it starts to get nasty at about 300hz, and even worse from there down to your 100hz Fc. Fact is it's not any semblance of a full range driver.......in any cabinet, as it only covers 5 maybe 6 octaves before things get ugly. Now if paired with a wide band sub (30-200ish), you'd have a cohesive design. If you can't inspect your own graphs, and take some input that you set in motion when you started the thread.........then what are you doing here?
I've got something to add......go back and inspect the graphs you posted on page 3 I believe, you'll see that it starts to get nasty at about 300hz, and even worse from there down to your 100hz Fc. Fact is it's not any semblance of a full range driver.......in any cabinet, as it only covers 5 maybe 6 octaves before things get ugly. Now if paired with a wide band sub (30-200ish), you'd have a cohesive design. If you can't inspect your own graphs, and take some input that you set in motion when you started the thread.........then what are you doing here?
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The differnce here is that I have real life experience and know how to read and interprete the graphs. I know what translates into real world problems, what is simply an anomoly of the software and what is an effect that isn't even noticable. The nulls in the response are both things you would never notice and anomolies that don't translate into the real world. Variances in frequency response of less than 6db are almost indecernable and amost completely moot when compared with the effects that room acoustics have on FR. in any room. In the cabinets my friend built it plays very loudly from 100hz to 20Khz with only one driver. You're not even trying to make a point, you're just try to make me angry, why? This is a great driver and I think most of the readers of this post agree, if you don't why are you here? I really doubt it's out of concern for the other readers wasting there money on it. I am going to build some fantastic towers utilizing 8 of these drivers per tower and extending to 40hz @ 120db (corner loaded) with an impulse response that will put a Lowther to shame and high frequency response that will not suffer any of the combfiltering problems that concerned many of you with my previous designs. I appreciated all of the constructive criticism and comment of most of you but the negativity of a few of you is just more than I am willing to deal with so I am not going to share my recent epiphanies with any of you unless you PM me and you can thank the nay sayers for the fact that I will not be contributing to this forum any longer because the moderators seem to think they need to cesure those who get upset but take no action against those who just go from thread to thread tearing apart other people's Ideas because they lack the intellegence to come up with their own.
Well like I said I'm working on a tower design with 4 of these drivers. I decided the best way to deal with the comb filter effect was to instead of doing an array employ sort of a Unity horn type configuration combined with a rear loaded horn. I'm drawing it up on sketchup right now and will post it up to my Google 3D Warehouse account. Of course I have the same problem there with idiots who couldn't make it as designers appointing themselves as critics. The problem there is those guys don't know a Klipshhorn from a Bose Acoustimas and all they to is rip on my modeling skills like I was trying to impress them. I can't deal with critics why can't people just enjoy other peoples ideas without trying to impress others by ripping them apart.
For the record: I never said don't build it, just don't be disappointed if the simulations don't translate how you hoped. Yes, +/- 6db is fairly small, but you can't argue that anything other than an ideal listening space will exacerbate those problems.....just something to consider. For what it's worth your designs are visually stunning on paper. Maybe I am closed-minded, but I just can't envision 1" driver(s) surpassing the performance of proven designs mentioned earlier on with larger drivers.
Well thank for finally being reasonable, I wouldn't have thought so either but after I began modeling them and seeing that the impulse response was better than anything I had ever seen(and from experience I have learned that the impulse response is one of the most important factors in the realistic reproduction of sound) I started thinking about it and realized that a bunch of little independantly suspended surfaces will be both lighter and have far less flex than one large one. Weight and flex are the two biggest enemies to realistic sound reproduction. Top that with the fact that this driver has more than twice the Xmax then the FE206E (one of the best drivers I've ever heard) it all started to make sense. I keep having this argument with my brother who keeps insisting that a bigger driver just moves more air so it has to outperform a smaller one. But the fact of the matter is that sound is not wind, sound is vibration, more specifically vibration of your ear drum. The more eficiently you can do that the more sound you can get. In a horn the vibrating surface is not the Sd of the driver but rather the mouth of the horn if the driver and the horn are designed to more efficiently excite the air at the mouth of the horn the size of the driver is not so relivent.
One other thing I am learning more all the time is that for a speaker to truely be fantastic it has to be designed for the room it is in. My intention as soon as I finish getting my degree (or perhaps before that) is to have my own home theater design and consulting firm. To properly design a home theater ideally I'd like to start by designing or at least modifying the actual acoustic space and building the speakers to complement and reach their greatest potential in that space.
Solid logic there on home theater design. They do the same in dedicated concert halls and the like......just scaled down. That's a pretty small market in today's economy though.
I think it's bigger than most people imagine, but I still have no idea how to get into it aside from building my own and advertising the crap out of it. I've been looking feverishly for software that would somewhat acuratly model small room acoustics. The prevailing attitude seems to be that acoustics in small rooms are so bad that they aren't worth modeling, so just don't make any huge mistakes like disregarding room modes. But it's an attitude I have yet to be convinced of. If anyone knows of any such software please tell me about it.
Thank you it's my favorite too. It's pretty much the only one that I put as much thought into looks as I did performance. The idiots on Google 3D warehouse gave it 1 star out of 5 because they thought it was actually supposed to be a saxophone instead of a speaker cabinet. I tried to explain that I was designing a cabinet I could actually build and not trying to make the best 3D model. I think the one I'm working on now is going to be pretty visually stunning too. At least I hope so. It remains to be seen whether I prefer mating at subwoofer to a smaller design that quits around 70-100Hz like that one or trying to squeeze lower bass(40hz) out of them like the one I'm working on now. If you look at my sketch up design you'll see the subwoofer I designed using 100 of these. I still don't quite know what group delay sounds like so I'm not sure if this desingn is worth messing with (although it doesn't model nearly as bad as others mentioned) but I haven't found an other driver that gives the response this one does with the near perfect impulse response in hornresp. I know I rely very heavily on hornresp but it has yet to let me down and I don't have the recources at the moment to do all the real life experimenting I'd like to. The biggest thing I lack right now is a decent room to measure in.
It's not generalized room modeling software but Martin King's work models lots of room factors (floor bounce, ceiling, walls, degrees off-axis, various path lengths obviously etc.) Also, AkAbak might be an option?
Yeah, I haven't looked at AkAbak in a while. It seemed overly complex compared to hornresp at the time (a few years ago) I may just be ready for it now. The last time I emailed Martin King he wasn't selling his worksheets anymore but it looks like he is again maybe I'll hit him up one of these days. Thanks for the reminders
well that is hogwash. theres the 'accepted standard' or whatever you want to call it, which may or may not be seen as correct anymore, that says 1dB is the smallest incremental change the ear can hear. i tend to think its less than this, at certain frequencies at least. at frequencies lower than maybe 150 hz, perhaps our ears are less sensitive, but 6dB is easily noticable.
Brsanko: I like your ideas here, so dont misunderstand me, but i really tend to think the ONLY way you could get ANY/REAL bass from these types of drivers would be in a large horn loaded array. with the 2"ers i get somthing like 105dB mean efficiency thru the passband, but anything below Fs is exceeding xmax, and thats with a lower turnover at 150hz. lengthening the horn helps extend bass lower, thats is true, but at the expense of more excessive excursion, and a seemingly more sudden loss of loading at LFs. maybe 8/12/16 or more of these drivers would have a chance at doing 120hz-20k at good efficiency, maybe better IF a bit of LFEQ can be applied without issue.
Okay first of all I'm not saying that changes in volume are indecernable I'm saying that no matter how flat your response is in theory or in an anocaic chamber, when you put them in a real room it's not even close to flat anymore and since our ears are very used to different environments there isn't one flat response that sounds real and any variance will sound wrong. So a super flat response really doesn't effect how real something sounds. It's still something to shoot for but it's not the holy grail of good sound. Dynamics, and low distortion(the 2 things that horns have in spades) are far more crucial. as to your second paragraph all of those factors are modeled by hornresp and what you are saying simply isn't the case. I can can get bass down to 70Hz with one driver upto 110db without exceeding xmax(within that passband) and the horn is not that large. If you don't believe me than your point is as academic as mine, and for the sake of this discussion I am going to assume that hornresp's predictions are 100% acurate because from my experience they always have been.
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I think we all appreciate innovative "outside the box" thinking here. The modeling is solid from the 3 graphs I've seen. Impulse response is very good, FR above 150ish is good. Group delay may or may not be a factor for the OP. The all important graph I have not seen is predicted excursion. What is the driver doing below tuning frequency with enough voltage to get to sufficient levels...lets say 90db? My guess is flopping around like a fish in the boat. I would play with a few different high-pass filters when you build it (80/100/120/140). Maybe design a wide band OB sub with a PA driver while the creative juices are flowing.
Disclaimer- not "naysaying", just relevant questions.
Disclaimer- not "naysaying", just relevant questions.
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