Well the Sterling Silvers sold before I could get them. Now that I think about it, I am glad I didn't purchase them. I always had a difficult time enjoying my Hammer Dynamic speakers mainly because of the crossover issue.
I think I have narrowed my decision to two options now.
F200a in a BIB (would the magnet be to long to work in a BIB?) just thought of that
Tang Band 1808 or other 8" driver plus Eminence 15 beta on each side in OB setup.
Maybe Bob Brines or Godzilla could give their opinion. These two options both come down to the same price which is around 900 dollars.
I think I have narrowed my decision to two options now.
F200a in a BIB (would the magnet be to long to work in a BIB?) just thought of that
Tang Band 1808 or other 8" driver plus Eminence 15 beta on each side in OB setup.
Maybe Bob Brines or Godzilla could give their opinion. These two options both come down to the same price which is around 900 dollars.
I'd vote for OB speakers place out some distance from the wall. It's mostly the mids that you care about.
One thing to keep in mind is that you will not be playing CD recordings of piano music. You will be played piano samples. This is more like a raw feed off a mic preamp. I think if there is to be any sense of space it will have to be created by the speakers. I'm pretty sure you want speakers that have very wide dispersion, omni directional would be best. Then pull them out from the wall.
re-stated in audiophile terms. You should have a very strong "They Are Here" effect as opposed to the "You Are There" kind of sound.
I'm seriously thinking to follow the lead of that $19,000 Yamaha and use open baffle speakers mounted on a horizontal baffle and then hang a solid hardwood reflector panel over them. But I'd experiment with small scale set ups first.
Most people here, I'd bet, have most of their piano listening experience with recorded music played through speakers. That just does not apply here because that music has been mixed and mastered for stereo speakers. This source has not been. The best thing to do is is spend time listening to a real acoustic grand piano. Learn how it projects different sounds in different directions. Much of the bass goes straight into the floor and the lid sends highs to the pianist's right. The other things that are foreign to most stereophiles are that (1) reflection off (some) room boundaries is a Good Thing. and is part of the normal sound we hear at a concert. (2) there is no sweet spot location. One can walk in a circle around a piano and it sounds like a piano at every point.
I think with much effort you can get 95% of this. But I think also that there is a 20/80 solution where you get 80 of the effect for 20% cost. I'd really like to try a 4" Fostex full range aimed up vertically with a large bowling ball suspended above it as an omni directional reflector. At the other end of the cabinet is a downward firing sub pointed right at the floor. This would be a one-trick speaker used only for virtual sampled pianos like for example this one:
SampleTekk - Products, detail
It seems maybe radial speakers may be the trick. I am not finding much on diy of this type of cabinet. It looks like you have done alot of research about this and sampled sounds.
Audiophile Tube Amps and Tube Gear from DECWARE
Audiophile Tube Amps and Tube Gear from DECWARE
I've been listening to both grand and upright pianos at home (in various periods of my life), and at various live events regularly. Piano is a pretty big musical instrument and its 'big' sounds largely interact with the space. You can hear that factor even in the recordings. (Of course all acoustic instruments do this, but the attack-decay proportion and extremely rich chords of a piano make it quite unique in this regard.) That means, there's no standard correct sound of a piano.
So, in this case, I think there're a lot of space and flexibility available to get the sound you want. This system may be seen as a part of the musical instrument. It's not necessary to be accurate and can be tuned to your liking.
So you may think out of the box (hi-fi).
So, in this case, I think there're a lot of space and flexibility available to get the sound you want. This system may be seen as a part of the musical instrument. It's not necessary to be accurate and can be tuned to your liking.
So you may think out of the box (hi-fi).
I would rather buy a real baby grand piano, but the issue is tuning the instrument on a regular basis. I am very picky about intonation since I teach string instruments and violin is my main instrument. It seems violin is the hardest to reproduce out of all sampled sounds. The sampled harp pedal was a different story. It almost sounded as good as my folk harp I made.
This question is for godzilla. How much spacing do you have from your OBs to your wall and how far are you from the speakers? I will have to be listening nearfield since my room is small.
This question is for godzilla. How much spacing do you have from your OBs to your wall and how far are you from the speakers? I will have to be listening nearfield since my room is small.
For a noble fullrange in a BiB I would rather take the Veravox 7X because of the lower Vas.
Solen Electronique Inc.
I haven't heard it, but if it is as good as the 5X it is worth the money.
Solen Electronique Inc.
I haven't heard it, but if it is as good as the 5X it is worth the money.
>>> This question is for godzilla. How much spacing do you have from your OBs to your wall and how far are you from the speakers? I will have to be listening nearfield since my room is small.
16" from the rear wall and 10" from the side walls. I am about 8 feet from the speakers. They sound better further into the listening room but encroach on my space. I wish i had a larger room! I would call my setup 'nearfield' actually. My BIBs were about two inches from the rear and side walls opening up the space available in the room and making it feel larger.
If you don't mind and have the space to move the speakers into the room up to two feet from the rear and side walls then OB sounds great. I really don't have the room and so listen to them in not quite their best position.
How come you are not considering other options?
16" from the rear wall and 10" from the side walls. I am about 8 feet from the speakers. They sound better further into the listening room but encroach on my space. I wish i had a larger room! I would call my setup 'nearfield' actually. My BIBs were about two inches from the rear and side walls opening up the space available in the room and making it feel larger.
If you don't mind and have the space to move the speakers into the room up to two feet from the rear and side walls then OB sounds great. I really don't have the room and so listen to them in not quite their best position.
How come you are not considering other options?
I don't know what other options there are. It seems everyone is on an open baffle craze because of purity of sound. You seem to like your 1808 with bass support in OB the best. I measured my room and the OB will work in my room, but I won't really have room for anything else in the room. I think I need something best for nearfield listening.
Having re read your original post maybe you should look more closely into BIBs if only bc they will perform best in corners and have a small footprint. Tho i have not built a pair, i think the 4" TB Bamboo's in a BIB would be a great choice in a room your size. I would also add a helper tweeter for best performance. The cabinet will be about 52" x 7" x 10" and tuck away nicely into the corners. I think the bass will satisfy. The reason i think the TB would work is bc the Fostex drivers are more revealing and you want something that's forgiving. Just food for thought.
Zilla
Zilla
If correct tonal intonation is your goal, the F 200 A is the target.
I would of course suggest that the drivers be EnABL'd so that everything is correct and precise. The type of box is not quite as important with the F 200 A eN drivers. The stock drivers are probably best in one of Bob Brines cabinets. EnaBL'd are also going to be very correct in his cabinets.
There is a posting on how to perform the EnABL yourself. However this is a picky driver and the various steps must not be bypassed. Not hard to do though, just tedious. There are five pairs are out in the world and the owners are mad for them, only one has purchased a RAAL ribbon for orchestral air and his comment was that the speed of rise time for the eN driver was a perfect match for the RAAL, sliding in on an 11 kHz slant induced by a capacitor.
I would consider one of the Large Mark Audio full range drivers too.
I have a pair of the 4 inch drivers in a Fonken box from Planet 10. These do not need a bass augmentation, the EnABL process for them is simple to do and the intonation and tone, depth of field detail etc. is superb. I do have a pair of Fonken Woof boxes under mine, just for the 60 Hz and down strength, to provide the full weight of the orchestra, but they are not needed most of the time and so are turned off.
If you are a musician and are most interested in musical values, then the EnABL drivers are what you want. All of the "speaker" qualities that are usually added to musical values are just gone. Nothing left except the music itself.
I would of course suggest that the drivers be EnABL'd so that everything is correct and precise. The type of box is not quite as important with the F 200 A eN drivers. The stock drivers are probably best in one of Bob Brines cabinets. EnaBL'd are also going to be very correct in his cabinets.
There is a posting on how to perform the EnABL yourself. However this is a picky driver and the various steps must not be bypassed. Not hard to do though, just tedious. There are five pairs are out in the world and the owners are mad for them, only one has purchased a RAAL ribbon for orchestral air and his comment was that the speed of rise time for the eN driver was a perfect match for the RAAL, sliding in on an 11 kHz slant induced by a capacitor.
I would consider one of the Large Mark Audio full range drivers too.
I have a pair of the 4 inch drivers in a Fonken box from Planet 10. These do not need a bass augmentation, the EnABL process for them is simple to do and the intonation and tone, depth of field detail etc. is superb. I do have a pair of Fonken Woof boxes under mine, just for the 60 Hz and down strength, to provide the full weight of the orchestra, but they are not needed most of the time and so are turned off.
If you are a musician and are most interested in musical values, then the EnABL drivers are what you want. All of the "speaker" qualities that are usually added to musical values are just gone. Nothing left except the music itself.
My only concern with the F200a is maxing them out. The sample sounds demand such high volume levels even with samples such as the harp. Even the B20s seem to distort under these volumes, but the distortion seem to come from the whizzer cone mainly
I am interested in the 4" drivers from Mark Audio. What woofer are you using for bass support? Are you using passive crossover?
I am curious- Do you play any instruments yourself?
I am interested in the 4" drivers from Mark Audio. What woofer are you using for bass support? Are you using passive crossover?
I am curious- Do you play any instruments yourself?
You are not going to get the dynamics of the live performance, unless you have a wall of drivers, all without any characteristic "speaker sound".
Full range, or at least 100 to 10k is definitely the way to go for the most natural presentation of musical values. No unruly phase shifts across the crossover points interfering with the music.
The woofers are CSS SDX7's, two per slant loaded aperiodic cabinet. Very fast, very light, no extraneous noises and perfect intonation for bass instruments. I no longer listen at anything like concert levels, so the Mark Audio Alpair 7's suit my needs perfectly, though a Lowther PM6A / Emminence Delta 8 combo, to alternately sit on the bass columns, is in the future. The bass columns are driven by a pair of plate amps, with continuously variable volume, phase and crossover point for the 12 dB roll off, up to 120 Hz. They are currently dialed in at 15% volume, 5 degrees of positive phase and a 70 Hz turn over point. The Alpairs are left to run down to the Fonken induced limits. Perfectly blended. These will easily support the nude open baffle Lowther / Delta8 combo, when that system is ready. Sort of a lift and play set up, depending upon taste of the week.
I no longer play. I played upright Tuba, French Horn and Bassoon from age 8 to 27, in orchestra. Teacher and conductor was Harold Brunt, an optional conductor for the CSO and guest conductor for the youth orchestra supported by the CSO. So, my taste was developed from being in the orchestra, but not buried in any of the sectors.
Most recently I spent a delighted 3 hours with the Seattle Opera Company's Lucia di Lammermoor, in the acoustically perfect McCaw hall. I have waited most of my life to see that opera!
Full range, or at least 100 to 10k is definitely the way to go for the most natural presentation of musical values. No unruly phase shifts across the crossover points interfering with the music.
The woofers are CSS SDX7's, two per slant loaded aperiodic cabinet. Very fast, very light, no extraneous noises and perfect intonation for bass instruments. I no longer listen at anything like concert levels, so the Mark Audio Alpair 7's suit my needs perfectly, though a Lowther PM6A / Emminence Delta 8 combo, to alternately sit on the bass columns, is in the future. The bass columns are driven by a pair of plate amps, with continuously variable volume, phase and crossover point for the 12 dB roll off, up to 120 Hz. They are currently dialed in at 15% volume, 5 degrees of positive phase and a 70 Hz turn over point. The Alpairs are left to run down to the Fonken induced limits. Perfectly blended. These will easily support the nude open baffle Lowther / Delta8 combo, when that system is ready. Sort of a lift and play set up, depending upon taste of the week.
I no longer play. I played upright Tuba, French Horn and Bassoon from age 8 to 27, in orchestra. Teacher and conductor was Harold Brunt, an optional conductor for the CSO and guest conductor for the youth orchestra supported by the CSO. So, my taste was developed from being in the orchestra, but not buried in any of the sectors.
Most recently I spent a delighted 3 hours with the Seattle Opera Company's Lucia di Lammermoor, in the acoustically perfect McCaw hall. I have waited most of my life to see that opera!
I am a string guy so my experience with brass instruments is limited. Were you ever in a jazz band? I have always wanted to play a brass instrument just for the sheer volume. I guess if I had to pick a brass instrument to learn, it would be the trombone.
When I run the prices for your setup and the F200a setup, the price is almost the same with the plate amps. I guess the luxury of the SDX7 is the upper range driver can always be replaced.
I have never been to a live opera. I have always been told that you can't hate opera when you have been to a live performance. I need to rent some Blu-ray operas, but it wont ever compare with a live performance.
I wonder if their are plans available for your setup. The F200a driver still intrigues me because of the one driver purist setup, but on the other hand the extra drivers may work better when dynamics need to be felt.
I appreciate your help on this forum. Your comments about enabling the F200a got me interested in that driver in the first place.
When I run the prices for your setup and the F200a setup, the price is almost the same with the plate amps. I guess the luxury of the SDX7 is the upper range driver can always be replaced.
I have never been to a live opera. I have always been told that you can't hate opera when you have been to a live performance. I need to rent some Blu-ray operas, but it wont ever compare with a live performance.
I wonder if their are plans available for your setup. The F200a driver still intrigues me because of the one driver purist setup, but on the other hand the extra drivers may work better when dynamics need to be felt.
I appreciate your help on this forum. Your comments about enabling the F200a got me interested in that driver in the first place.
If that's also one of the instruments you are going to play through the speakers, then you'll need horns !!
Here is what Dave sent me when I asked what these marvelous sounding things were. The picture is with a pair of Fonken / F127eN speakers in Bamboo on top. I can provide some with the Alpair 7's if you wish.
Dave did say he was looking forward to doing more with this style of cabinet, especially as the CSS SD7's were starting to get rare. Rattle his cage, see what he's thinking about, bound to be interesting.
Dave did say he was looking forward to doing more with this style of cabinet, especially as the CSS SD7's were starting to get rare. Rattle his cage, see what he's thinking about, bound to be interesting.
I only played in a pick up Jazz group, at one of the local coffee/wine/whiskey/dinner etc. clubs, during the week, during the summer when I was 17 and had graduated HS. On weekends they spotlighted folk singers, much to my delight. I brought the Tuba of course, the other musicians got a kick out me being able to challenge the drummer, without an amp!
You really need to go see at least one live opera. Then, having experienced the sheer scale of artistry involved, this will allow you to enjoy the Blu Ray presentations for what opera's really are, just right off this planet in terms of theater, human story and music!
You really need to go see at least one live opera. Then, having experienced the sheer scale of artistry involved, this will allow you to enjoy the Blu Ray presentations for what opera's really are, just right off this planet in terms of theater, human story and music!
It sounds like Tuba was your main instrument. When I see the Tuba it shows me why horn speakers sound so good. Look at this giant Tuba. It seems so unreal, but someone is actually playing it! Giant Tuba, largest tuba in the world, giant musical instrument
I would like the plans to Alpair 7 if they are available. I heard Dave was trying to come up with a design with 4 SDX7s per side with the Alpair 7. That should be a killer combo.
I would like the plans to Alpair 7 if they are available. I heard Dave was trying to come up with a design with 4 SDX7s per side with the Alpair 7. That should be a killer combo.
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