Going back to the bass, I think that's a real factor since it can be proved when quantising music. Delaying the bass will drag down the beat. This may affect both speakers and amp. I also use infinite baffle speakers right now, as a previous poster stated, but I think that 2 way standmount speakers with less bass may also help the effect of not having heavy bass. The worst would probably be a subwoofer. I hate the things, and ask for them to be turned off when I listen to somebody else's system.
I still believe some of this is in the amplification. It's not tonal balance, I think it's in the power supply (plus using only directly heated tubes, which are "lighter" sounding). That was Naim's proposition. I only use tube amps, but even so the same principles may apply, if we are going to be grandiose enough to call them "principles"! I just changed the filament supply on my preamp, which has filament bias. I used a bigger transformer and pure choke input instead of a small cap. I really think I can hear a bit more boogie factor - I was tapping my foot wildly last night. The men in the white coats came this morning to sedate me, so I'm writing this while one has nipped out for a cup of tea.
andy
I still believe some of this is in the amplification. It's not tonal balance, I think it's in the power supply (plus using only directly heated tubes, which are "lighter" sounding). That was Naim's proposition. I only use tube amps, but even so the same principles may apply, if we are going to be grandiose enough to call them "principles"! I just changed the filament supply on my preamp, which has filament bias. I used a bigger transformer and pure choke input instead of a small cap. I really think I can hear a bit more boogie factor - I was tapping my foot wildly last night. The men in the white coats came this morning to sedate me, so I'm writing this while one has nipped out for a cup of tea.
andy
Hey Andy - I'm interested in your ideas about this. You had mentioned shifting the bass track earlier. That's something I'd love to play around with - so can you tell me by how much you were shifting the bass line? A figure in milliseconds would be nice, but I'll take what you got.
If changing something upstream changes the sound of the speakers, that should be measurable.
If changing something upstream changes the sound of the speakers, that should be measurable.
what should be measure? 🙂
about one week ago I had changed LF in my new system 😀 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/174256-my-flush-inwall-ib-system.html).
first\temporary was noname 12" ~30hz\qts0.4x.
current is 15" Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers.
now there is boogie factor 😎 I'd tired of tapping foot at the first night after replacement.
you can rotate eq\delay\xover point\order hither and thither within reasonable limits - boogie factor presents.
all other components rermain the same.
😕
about one week ago I had changed LF in my new system 😀 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/174256-my-flush-inwall-ib-system.html).
first\temporary was noname 12" ~30hz\qts0.4x.
current is 15" Eighteen Sound - professional loudspeakers.
now there is boogie factor 😎 I'd tired of tapping foot at the first night after replacement.
you can rotate eq\delay\xover point\order hither and thither within reasonable limits - boogie factor presents.
all other components rermain the same.
😕
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Hello pano
I actually can't give you a figure in milliseconds - I didn't do the quantising and I'm still learning Logic. If my memory is correct we advanced the bass by about a demi semi quaver in the bar on a medium tempo. I'd recommend you to try it out and see for yourself. This does ask the question what to do with a subwoofer - can software be used to advance the subwoofer?
andy
I actually can't give you a figure in milliseconds - I didn't do the quantising and I'm still learning Logic. If my memory is correct we advanced the bass by about a demi semi quaver in the bar on a medium tempo. I'd recommend you to try it out and see for yourself. This does ask the question what to do with a subwoofer - can software be used to advance the subwoofer?
andy
For US musicians I should say try something like advancing between a 16th and a 32nd note.
andy
andy
We realize this is a contentious subject but let's at least try to remain civil. No more cheap shots. Avoid the thread all together if the urge hits.
Hi,
True, but your hardly in the position to judge what that might be,
your not interested in the fundamental design concepts, so your
not talking philosophy, your talking your own fairly meaningless
semantics, with your attitude they will lead you nowhere.
Overall concept ? Without being interested in fundamental design ?
Not a chance of getting anywere near with such trivial analysis.
You seem to want some form of manifesto, some rules, and only
the ones that suit you or you understand, it does not exist.
rgds, sreten.
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I think broadly speaking audiojoy is talking "design goals" and sreten is talking "design". Since audio reproduction is almost wholly about re-experiencing music, and since music is common to all of us, I don't see a problem with this, except where the design goals are too vague to be put into actual designs. But even then, a lot of important work has come out of what in the first instance were merely hunches.
andy
andy
Did you measure the frequency response and are there differences between the two woofers say below 50Hz or so?? Might help understand what's going on.
Rob🙂
Thanks Andy. I figured you might be shifting by note time, not fractional seconds. If I can get my hands on some tracks, I'll mess around with it. Cheers!
LF using with eq, approximatly flat to 20-30 hz (nearfield; room ads peaks and deeps). (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/174256-my-flush-inwall-ib-system.html)
I playd with eq and delay a little - no considerable change in BF😕😀.
Hi all again.
I have to admit that changing the lower frequency input sub 100hz via an equaliser certainly effects PRAT. However i clearly hear the PRAT phenomena when listening to tracks with guitars only in them.
e.g toure farka's album I mentioned earlier. The speed at which the notes in the high frequencies start and stop also appear to be as important. Quad esl57's sound amazing on acoustic guitar. The light membrane is able to transfer energy quickly, but is it the speed of notes stopping and starting or the timbres that are also more realistically reproduced that contribute to the overall emotion and rhythm evoked? Is it the speed of the bass or the harmonics that it adds to the rest of the frequency that is affecting the PRAT phenomena?
I have to admit that changing the lower frequency input sub 100hz via an equaliser certainly effects PRAT. However i clearly hear the PRAT phenomena when listening to tracks with guitars only in them.
e.g toure farka's album I mentioned earlier. The speed at which the notes in the high frequencies start and stop also appear to be as important. Quad esl57's sound amazing on acoustic guitar. The light membrane is able to transfer energy quickly, but is it the speed of notes stopping and starting or the timbres that are also more realistically reproduced that contribute to the overall emotion and rhythm evoked? Is it the speed of the bass or the harmonics that it adds to the rest of the frequency that is affecting the PRAT phenomena?
I won't comment on your conjecture other than to point out, that contrary to what the Audio Rags would have, there is no such thing as fast bass. You may have underdamped drivers, overdamped drivers or, as Goldilocks observed, drivers that are "just right!"
Faster Bass is just higher frequency bass, and that's all it is.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Terry O does that therfore mean that a bass player cannot control the timing of his bass note playing at a certain frequency?? and in order to play faster he would just have to play the bass notes at a higher frequency??
Please enlighten me.
Please enlighten me.
Terry O
Conjecture is a bit strong mate. I may not be an expert in electronics and sound science, but I know a little bit about timbre, harmonics etc. So why not call it a theory instead??
Conjecture is a bit strong mate. I may not be an expert in electronics and sound science, but I know a little bit about timbre, harmonics etc. So why not call it a theory instead??
Wouldn't a theory need to have some sort of supporting facts?
The whole idea of "Fast Bass" is merely a phantasm of an overactive and un-schooled mind.........or worse.
Best Regards,
TerryO
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