The closest thing I've come to facts myself is a blind test. My appologies if this is off topic here.
I made a mod to my Logitech Transporter, bypassing the 100 uF electrolytic caps between the DAC chip and the buffer with a "better" cap. According to myth, it should be better, right? A listening test after the mod confirmed my desires for an improvement. However, a blind A-B test with a unmodified unit showed that there was no audible difference at all.
There is no question that not all capacitors are the same, just as not all inductors are the same. Different constructions exhibit different series and parallel parasitic resistances.
How much that affects the sound-that's another debate. But it is definitely possible in theory, and likely if you buy cheap junk.
Speakers last a LOOOOOOONG time, so I guess a more important consideration is: what is the most STABLE capacitor?
Personally, for the capacitors I hand-build spirals of mu-metal inside of Dr. Pepper cans. I polish all surfaces with Muga silk. Then, for speakers designed for rock-and-roll listening, I fill with Cabo Wabo Uno tequila as a dielectric. Speakers designed for classical and jazz I fill with wine hand-made by Sauro Cappelletti at the lovely Il Poggiarello Murlo* for a smooth, full-bodied sound. For leads, I employ Damascus-forged copper-nickel alloy (the nickel for better temperature coefficient), TIG welded for better workability with less spatter and cleanup product.
Inductors are another story...
*One of the loveliest places on Earth. Just remember to save some of the wine for your caps, don't drink all of it...
Agriturismo Siena Il Poggiarello di Murlo, Val di Merse agriturismo con produzione Vino e Olio, mangiare in agriturismo.
How much that affects the sound-that's another debate. But it is definitely possible in theory, and likely if you buy cheap junk.
Speakers last a LOOOOOOONG time, so I guess a more important consideration is: what is the most STABLE capacitor?
Personally, for the capacitors I hand-build spirals of mu-metal inside of Dr. Pepper cans. I polish all surfaces with Muga silk. Then, for speakers designed for rock-and-roll listening, I fill with Cabo Wabo Uno tequila as a dielectric. Speakers designed for classical and jazz I fill with wine hand-made by Sauro Cappelletti at the lovely Il Poggiarello Murlo* for a smooth, full-bodied sound. For leads, I employ Damascus-forged copper-nickel alloy (the nickel for better temperature coefficient), TIG welded for better workability with less spatter and cleanup product.
Inductors are another story...
*One of the loveliest places on Earth. Just remember to save some of the wine for your caps, don't drink all of it...
Agriturismo Siena Il Poggiarello di Murlo, Val di Merse agriturismo con produzione Vino e Olio, mangiare in agriturismo.
Sorry i must have missed the bit where they said they used an extended bandwidth source for the capacitor tests.
oh, that's right- they didn't.
oh, that's right- they didn't.
No doubt caps are different, and that there would be a difference.
But is it really anything to worry about as long as you don't use crap caps with inferior specs and high esr?
A difference -80dB isn't really a big deal.
But is it really anything to worry about as long as you don't use crap caps with inferior specs and high esr?
A difference -80dB isn't really a big deal.
I wonder how many differences at -80 it takes to become audible. Say you have 4 or 5 mods made, and each one is of the order of -80, when does the compound effect become obviously audible?
I do know that my CDs ripped to HD faster if i polished them with a microfibre cloth 1st.
dave
For everyone that is curious...
...I will be doing an A/B/X test for *unknown to the listener* caps at the Iowa DIY:
Iowa DIY 2010
...event in Grinnell, Iowa on the morning of October 16th, using these:
I plan on doing 3 series of switching tests, and there will be ballots for voting.
Please come and participate if you want! I'm saying I can hear the difference, but can you?
I have listed the tracks for review to become familiar with them in this build thread:
Codename: "Attitudes"/cap-test progress... - Techtalk at Parts-Express.com
That way you can know what you should be listening for in your own research.
Hope to see you there!
Wolf
...I will be doing an A/B/X test for *unknown to the listener* caps at the Iowa DIY:
Iowa DIY 2010
...event in Grinnell, Iowa on the morning of October 16th, using these:
I plan on doing 3 series of switching tests, and there will be ballots for voting.
Please come and participate if you want! I'm saying I can hear the difference, but can you?
I have listed the tracks for review to become familiar with them in this build thread:
Codename: "Attitudes"/cap-test progress... - Techtalk at Parts-Express.com
That way you can know what you should be listening for in your own research.
Hope to see you there!
Wolf
...I will be doing an A/B/X test for *unknown to the listener* caps at the Iowa DIY:
Iowa DIY 2010
...event in Grinnell, Iowa on the morning of October 16th, using these:
I plan on doing 3 series of switching tests, and there will be ballots for voting.
Please come and participate if you want! I'm saying I can hear the difference, but can you?
I have listed the tracks for review to become familiar with them in this build thread:
Codename: "Attitudes"/cap-test progress... - Techtalk at Parts-Express.com
That way you can know what you should be listening for in your own research.
Hope to see you there!
Wolf
You may want to consider trying Waslo's DiffMaker software on your xovers. It may add an objective component to your overall subjective comparative tests of caps.
If it were me, I'd spring for a real boutique cap or two in your xover somewhere. Something like a Duelund or Jantzen Silver/Gold or Mundorf silver/oil or even Clarity Caps MR's which where shown to be somewhat better than st'd film caps using a trained, golden ear panel.
See link below which contains an article with a link to the Clarity Cap tests.
Capacitor voltage rating vs performance - The Classic Speaker Pages Discussion Forums
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I'm well versed...
I have some real boutiques in there, about $46 for a 6.8uF. This test was mainly to see about the 'lesser expensive' caps, with a reference point of one in the next up bracket. It is easier to tell with those against the cheaper ones, but not all more expensive caps yield that kind of benefit. There are some caps that are more snake oil than substance, caveat emptor.
The difference is that I have the caps in both the midrange and tweeter sections, and can switch both at the same time. Everytime I've seen these types of tests done before, it's one pair of caps to switch between 2 brands of maybe an NPE or mylar, and a lesser expensive decent-poly cap. It's always been on one driver only, and only 2 options before. I have about 11 options per xover per driver circuit, as well as an upstream cap in the first leg of the 3rd order electrical filter that I can alligator to a different brand if wanted. I can almost have all the series caps in the circuit be of the same make and series.
I even have a capacitor switch in the woofer shunt to vary between an NPE and 2 different poly caps. That is very audible.
I can't use that software in the test for the large group, but I might do it here at home. The Waslo testing is about the only cap info I've not seen before in this thread, as I've been doing tons of reading on the subject since I started it back in November. The Clarity Cap doc doesn't give a reference point to understand what is what.
Later,
Wolf
I have some real boutiques in there, about $46 for a 6.8uF. This test was mainly to see about the 'lesser expensive' caps, with a reference point of one in the next up bracket. It is easier to tell with those against the cheaper ones, but not all more expensive caps yield that kind of benefit. There are some caps that are more snake oil than substance, caveat emptor.
The difference is that I have the caps in both the midrange and tweeter sections, and can switch both at the same time. Everytime I've seen these types of tests done before, it's one pair of caps to switch between 2 brands of maybe an NPE or mylar, and a lesser expensive decent-poly cap. It's always been on one driver only, and only 2 options before. I have about 11 options per xover per driver circuit, as well as an upstream cap in the first leg of the 3rd order electrical filter that I can alligator to a different brand if wanted. I can almost have all the series caps in the circuit be of the same make and series.
I even have a capacitor switch in the woofer shunt to vary between an NPE and 2 different poly caps. That is very audible.
I can't use that software in the test for the large group, but I might do it here at home. The Waslo testing is about the only cap info I've not seen before in this thread, as I've been doing tons of reading on the subject since I started it back in November. The Clarity Cap doc doesn't give a reference point to understand what is what.
Later,
Wolf
Yeah, I figured on you trying the Waslo SW separate from the group A/B/X testing.
The white paper on the Clarity web site isn't complete. However, the reference to the AES paper is much more complete with panel results, etc... It's much more revealing of the struggle they had differentiating the new MR cap from others until the used a st'd test protocal and trained listeners. I have a link to the AES paper http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14444 If you are a member you can download it at no charge.
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If you think I'm going to spend $2000 in a set of *2* caps- you're insane! 😱
I spent less than that on the entire project. Shoot- the ones I used most people don't even scrimp for, so the choice is valid.
SD- I may try that out...
Later,
Wolf
I spent less than that on the entire project. Shoot- the ones I used most people don't even scrimp for, so the choice is valid.
SD- I may try that out...
Later,
Wolf
Wolf, you gotta close up of the innards of that thing? Can wait to read the results. I trust they'll be posted somewhere?
Thanks,
Dan
Thanks,
Dan
Dear Wolf,
The Dutch DIY site Zelfbouwaudio recently had a cap comparison test. Test signals were played through various caps. Only afterwards could a participant know whether or not there was a cap in the signal path. The outcome was that, once the different caps were adjusted for identical output levels, there were no audible differences. Time and again it is overlooked that differences in ESR, hence insertion losses, are the main cause for audible differences.
Apart from careful calibrating of the output levels of the various caps, a blind test is also a must. Once the listener knows what he or she is listening to, the usual "boutique bias" will make the test completely useless. Off course the outcome of the Dutch test caused concern and anger with the boutique crowd. The argument then shifted and critics of the test stated music instead of test signals ought to have been used. So music instead of test signals were used> Outcome: indentical.
Statements such as "listen and off course you will hear a difference" are a non contribution to an objective test. But then again. if you want to spend a small fortune on boutique parts, have it your way, but please do not claim cap X souns better than cap Y.
To summmarize: for a proper test: blind and at carafully adjusted, identical, output levels.
Eelco de Bode
The Dutch DIY site Zelfbouwaudio recently had a cap comparison test. Test signals were played through various caps. Only afterwards could a participant know whether or not there was a cap in the signal path. The outcome was that, once the different caps were adjusted for identical output levels, there were no audible differences. Time and again it is overlooked that differences in ESR, hence insertion losses, are the main cause for audible differences.
Apart from careful calibrating of the output levels of the various caps, a blind test is also a must. Once the listener knows what he or she is listening to, the usual "boutique bias" will make the test completely useless. Off course the outcome of the Dutch test caused concern and anger with the boutique crowd. The argument then shifted and critics of the test stated music instead of test signals ought to have been used. So music instead of test signals were used> Outcome: indentical.
Statements such as "listen and off course you will hear a difference" are a non contribution to an objective test. But then again. if you want to spend a small fortune on boutique parts, have it your way, but please do not claim cap X souns better than cap Y.
To summmarize: for a proper test: blind and at carafully adjusted, identical, output levels.
Eelco de Bode
Your point about level-matching is critical- I turned a lovely Magneplanar speaker into something unlistenable by changing the NP electrolytic tweeter cap to a lower ESR polypropylene.
In a high impedance circuit, the ESR ends up being negligible. That allows one to set up comparisons for listening much more easily. The Bastard Box allows one to compare an extraordinarily expensive Teflon V-Cap to a cheap Radio Shack NP electrolytic in the first two switch positions, then has 12 positions of the switch which are randomized.
In a high impedance circuit, the ESR ends up being negligible. That allows one to set up comparisons for listening much more easily. The Bastard Box allows one to compare an extraordinarily expensive Teflon V-Cap to a cheap Radio Shack NP electrolytic in the first two switch positions, then has 12 positions of the switch which are randomized.
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