Every single time I've published the plans for a tapped horn, someone comments that I should have built a sealed box/vented box/front loaded horn/single reflex bandpass/dual reflex bandpass/transmission line/back loaded horn/etc.
If you don't like tapped horns, don't build one.
It's pretty simple.
Sounds like an interesting diversion from bar review. What box dimensions, and with how much power?
🙂
19.97 cubic feet or less, two woofers or less, unlimited power.
The trick is not to run out of Xmax 🙂
If you go to a pair of fifteens you might be able to do it, but it's tough to find fifteens with the right parameters. Faital and B&C have some that can do it I think.
If you stick with twelves there are probably a few that can do it as well, but none of them cost $150 each!
I probably shouldn't admit this, but I'm running this tapped horn with a $60 plate amp from MCM. So I'm only using about 10% of the power that the sub can handle. And this thing shakes the entire house.
In my defense, I have a *much* larger amplifier on hand, but I'm getting a ton of hum with it.
Anyways, unless you seriously want to do structural damage, the SDX10 should work pretty darn well. I can not only hear but *feel* the walls move on the other side of my house.
Well I likes a challenge!
Since we are dealing with simulations in this thread. ( Ones which I belive by the way.) As I have built enough of these things to know they can be accurately simulated. So I present the output screen of one TRIO12 FLH at 200 watts 1 Pi loading.
Put this in a room of normal size and you will have true .5 Pi loading at the extreme bottom end. That will give you another 6 db gain. Toss in room gain and you are well above the quoted 120 at 17hz.
Mind you this is with only one driver. Not really fair I know! 😀
Mark
Since we are dealing with simulations in this thread. ( Ones which I belive by the way.) As I have built enough of these things to know they can be accurately simulated. So I present the output screen of one TRIO12 FLH at 200 watts 1 Pi loading.
Put this in a room of normal size and you will have true .5 Pi loading at the extreme bottom end. That will give you another 6 db gain. Toss in room gain and you are well above the quoted 120 at 17hz.
Mind you this is with only one driver. Not really fair I know! 😀
Mark
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Sweet!
Isn't this the reason why you go and design and build these monster?
Sounds like you are really enjoying yourself.
Mark
Can't leave well enough alone
I tweeked the FLH I built in Hornresp. I added another driver and slighly changed the box in the reactance anulling chamber size and the throat about half way down.
This is getting scary. Keep in mind this is with two pcs TRIO12 and three hundred watts.
Again 1Pi loading. 2 Pi still meets the specs by the way. 120db at 17 hz.
Yes it can be done. And yes it is a big box. But you asking for a very tall order. We are talking SPL's that would make a pipe organ happy in quite a large space.
One more observation. With 100 watts this combination will still almost crack 120 db at 17hz. With 50 in a good solid corner it will almost be the same. So a great deal has to do with where you are listening.
Mark
I tweeked the FLH I built in Hornresp. I added another driver and slighly changed the box in the reactance anulling chamber size and the throat about half way down.
This is getting scary. Keep in mind this is with two pcs TRIO12 and three hundred watts.
Again 1Pi loading. 2 Pi still meets the specs by the way. 120db at 17 hz.
Yes it can be done. And yes it is a big box. But you asking for a very tall order. We are talking SPL's that would make a pipe organ happy in quite a large space.
One more observation. With 100 watts this combination will still almost crack 120 db at 17hz. With 50 in a good solid corner it will almost be the same. So a great deal has to do with where you are listening.
Mark
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Sorry Mark, close but no cigar 🙂
With an equal amount of power*, the Trio12 is blowing through it's physical excursion limits at 17hz. According to the sims, it's up to 35mm of xmax. That's why I had to use two woofers with a TON of xmax. A pair of Diymas has over twice as much displacement as a single Trio12. (two woofers with 23mm of xmax vs one woofer with 20mm)
Admittedly, the front loaded horn is more efficient above 30hz.
Here are the sims, using the exact same power, in 2pi loading. Note the excursion on the front-loaded horn 🙁
* 300 watts at 8ohms, or 48.99 volts
Here's a quick example of the efficiency advantages which I spoke of. I didn't believe this kind of efficiency was possible, until I built two enclosures using the exact same woofer and volume, and found that a tapped horn offered as much as 9-12dB more output on the low end.
Tapped horn at 13 and 17hz
Front loaded horn at 13 and 17hz
Again, I'm not saying the tapped horn is a "magic bullet." I'm saying that at very low frequencies it's hard to beat.
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Sweeeeeet 😀
You're probably right - especially if I team a dual SDX10 horn with my existing Tang Band 8"x12" horn. I've already seen 120dB peaks at listening position from that big boy... now I want to further my understanding of tapped horns by building something that outclasses the TB horn while being smaller at the same time. Hornresp says the SDX is my woofer to do that with. Same corner frequency, more SPL, 110 liters less space, with only a bit more juice from the QSC. Can't argue with that, unless I get the size down even more and still get the efficiency advantage I want from it.
I've only done the tapped horn thing once so far, but I'm definitely hooked. I may never go back to sealed or vented designs... this is too much fun.
For me, one of the "fun" things about horns is that they're response shape is largely determined by Thiele Small parameters. While the size of the cone and the displacement of the woofer will affect maximum output, they won't affect response shape. Once you grok that, it opens up some wacky possibilities, like getting 20hz out of 6" woofer, or making a house-shaking sub with a pair of eights. You're not going to rock a discotech with a pair of sixes, but for home theater, it's enough bass for 90% of us. You just have to find one with the right Thiele Small.
For instance, let's say you want to make a 20hz tapped horn. Just find a woofer with an FS of 28hz.* That's it! Any ol' woofer will do. Sure, QTS and VAS will dictate your box size. But there's nothing from stopping you from using a 6" woofer to get to 20hz. You just have to find one with an FS in the neighborhood of 28hz.
* The figure of 28hz is found by multiplying your target Fb by 1.41. So you'd want a woofer with an Fs of 28hz for a 20hz tapped horn, and if you happen to have a woofer lying around with an Fs of 40hz, it would make a fine candidate for a 28hz tapped horn. This isn't a "hard and fast" rule, but it gets you in the ballpark.
That sounds about right. I have my TB W8Q-1071F's at a 16Hz corner, but I got best results from them closer to 20Hz. There does seem to be some leeway there. Fs is 27Hz.
I'm struggling with efficiency vs. size on my SDX horn so far. I want to keep the size down, but I also want it more sensitive than 90dB @ 17Hz, even if that still gives me an advantage over a vented box. Somewhere along the way, I'll have to decide where to compromise. Have to remember there will be two tapped horns instead of one in here... I don't necessarily need sensitivity to be out of this world.
Ah well - I have a year to think about it, so says the wallet.
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The MCM 55-2421 works very well in horns, but I've always found that it sounds a bit "grungey." While it has a lot of displacement, the motor and cone are old-school; a ferrite magnet, no shorting rings, and an untreated paper cone.
A couple of weeks ago I modified one of my tapped horns by doping the cone with Titebond III to waterproof it, then flipping one of the two woofers to reduce 2nd harmonic distortion.
I was surprised what a difference it made! It's audibly cleaner now.
You can purchase six of the 55-2421s for under $190, and I'll bet you could get them down to 18 or 19hz with some careful doping of the cone to raise QMS.
Volkwagons compared to Cadillacs
If you are going to compare two designs in the manner you have posted. Please take in consideration the passband the box was designed for.
The FLH I designed is done with an F3 of 16 hz. To try and post SPL's at the low frequencies you have is a bit on the bonkers side of things. THe FLH will be bottoming out very noticable at 13 hz at those levels. But find me some music that actually calls for much below 16hz. I listen to many Pipe organ CD's and have all of the killer ones. Not much below 16 hz. Even when run through a spectrum analyzer.
You have a really good design as far as I have ben able to look at it. It can be simulated in Hornresp as well. The two driver locations that you have are within 1/4 wavelenght and are pretty much at acoustical center in the placement that you have. Won't make the difference of a hill of beans in the final graphs.
Your definitly an intelligent designer. So please compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. I'm not competing with you. I may give you the gears from time to time, but I do admire your intelligence. And your woodworking has definitely gone up quite afew notches in quality.
With a few key strokes You or I could take any design and have ******* contests with it. But the practicallity problem is always there. The horns become gargantuan. Both sizes are similar that is why I presented a comparison.
The driver I used is not suitable for a tapped horn.
The driver you used is really not suitable for a FLH.
Both will function but they shine in their present boxes.
I hope all goes well on your presentation. I thoroughly enjoyed mine. It's fun to watch guys jaws drop and heads wag with you can't hear 16 hz and then whammo! Yep you can hear 16 hz. It's just that you have never been infront of a sub that can produce it loud enough to hear it!
So all the more power to you John. Knock em dead! Or vibrate them dead .......( Yeah we know Patrick is not your real name! )
Mark
If you are going to compare two designs in the manner you have posted. Please take in consideration the passband the box was designed for.
The FLH I designed is done with an F3 of 16 hz. To try and post SPL's at the low frequencies you have is a bit on the bonkers side of things. THe FLH will be bottoming out very noticable at 13 hz at those levels. But find me some music that actually calls for much below 16hz. I listen to many Pipe organ CD's and have all of the killer ones. Not much below 16 hz. Even when run through a spectrum analyzer.
You have a really good design as far as I have ben able to look at it. It can be simulated in Hornresp as well. The two driver locations that you have are within 1/4 wavelenght and are pretty much at acoustical center in the placement that you have. Won't make the difference of a hill of beans in the final graphs.
Your definitly an intelligent designer. So please compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. I'm not competing with you. I may give you the gears from time to time, but I do admire your intelligence. And your woodworking has definitely gone up quite afew notches in quality.
With a few key strokes You or I could take any design and have ******* contests with it. But the practicallity problem is always there. The horns become gargantuan. Both sizes are similar that is why I presented a comparison.
The driver I used is not suitable for a tapped horn.
The driver you used is really not suitable for a FLH.
Both will function but they shine in their present boxes.
I hope all goes well on your presentation. I thoroughly enjoyed mine. It's fun to watch guys jaws drop and heads wag with you can't hear 16 hz and then whammo! Yep you can hear 16 hz. It's just that you have never been infront of a sub that can produce it loud enough to hear it!
So all the more power to you John. Knock em dead! Or vibrate them dead .......( Yeah we know Patrick is not your real name! )
Mark
Bummer. 🙁 It sims good in a 'mini' DSL DTS10 concept that's right at half the net bulk of your FLH, though it's still a little dynamically challenged when pumped up to the same size with the trade-off it's still pounding along down to near 10 Hz in theory hard enough to level my so-so constructed house based on what dual 14 Hz SD Contrabass subs did to it.
GM
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Hey GM
It can work.
It just does not work as well as other drivers. But I'm preaching to the choir on this one.
Thanks for the comparison. Any chance you care to post the input screen on the Tapped you did?
Mark
It can work.
It just does not work as well as other drivers. But I'm preaching to the choir on this one.
Thanks for the comparison. Any chance you care to post the input screen on the Tapped you did?
Mark
Yeah, I've seen it used in a design or two. The obstacle there is getting them across the border and the associated customs and duty fees, as well as some previous bad experiences with buying MCM. I'll probably stick to CSS - they're nice people and I haven't spent much money there yet.
Mach 5 has a new 12" woofer coming out soon... I'm hoping and praying it will do well in a tapped horn. It looks like a monster, and Mach 5 is both close to me and a great company to buy from.
Greets!
Hmm, maybe you're not since for the gain BW, etc., I'm interested in, it's the best I've found so far without resorting to adding resistance, inductance or designing a custom driver.
I didn't save the pumped up one, so just use the Wizard to increase S4 till it gets to the desired net Vb.
GM
Hmm, maybe you're not since for the gain BW, etc., I'm interested in, it's the best I've found so far without resorting to adding resistance, inductance or designing a custom driver.
I didn't save the pumped up one, so just use the Wizard to increase S4 till it gets to the desired net Vb.
GM
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