Very few technical arguments seem to affect sound quality, Wahab. A few, yes, damping factor, frequency response, distortion over about 2% to name three. Even seasoned engineers in the industry cannot agree on the significance of thd. Many engineers simply avoid talking of the issue. Yet so many smart people hang their hat on this dubious, lumped parameter. Perplexing indeed.
Lately distortion profile has been seized upon as having direct correlation with subjective sound quality. Jean Hiraga certainly thought so. Perhaps, perhaps not.
OTOH, people's tastes vary anyway. This really louses things up. Some love the single ended triode, with lashes of distortion. Some like fully complementary circuits, similar to yours, with very low measured distortion. A bit like savoury, or sweet. Amps, indeed speakers and entire systems, are a matter of taste as well as technical debate.
Therefore, cogent, well argued critiques of amp design, based entirely on rigorous technical analysis, serve more to illustrate the cleverness of the designer rather than the nature of the sound. For me, they remain formidably inconclusive.
Criticise those who only talk about how it sounds all you like (with the hidden, somewhat smug implication that these guys are not smart, mere witchdoctors!), but these guys are mostly consumers, and they are very important, and one of the reasons that the industry is so shot full of crass marketing. Look at any Stereophile review, particularly where the 'sound' is discussed. But it is a fact that the engineers and technical folk have studied for years just what it is that makes a good amp, but have mostly failed, at this stage, to nail it. In time, they will, I am sure.
There is more to the design of these beasts than merely measured thd, FR, and slew rate. Much more. And until this is universally realised, and people find out how and why, there will be this accusatory, bitter feud between the subjectivists and the objectivists. And those that dogmatically make their points by decibel will prove nothing until some concrete correlation emerges between the technical analysis and the mechanisms of subjective assessment by the human species. Of course, it does no good at all that we tend to measure with one or two sine tones when the subjective assessment is invariably performed with music......
Program will now resume.....
Cheers,
Hugh
Lately distortion profile has been seized upon as having direct correlation with subjective sound quality. Jean Hiraga certainly thought so. Perhaps, perhaps not.
OTOH, people's tastes vary anyway. This really louses things up. Some love the single ended triode, with lashes of distortion. Some like fully complementary circuits, similar to yours, with very low measured distortion. A bit like savoury, or sweet. Amps, indeed speakers and entire systems, are a matter of taste as well as technical debate.
Therefore, cogent, well argued critiques of amp design, based entirely on rigorous technical analysis, serve more to illustrate the cleverness of the designer rather than the nature of the sound. For me, they remain formidably inconclusive.
Criticise those who only talk about how it sounds all you like (with the hidden, somewhat smug implication that these guys are not smart, mere witchdoctors!), but these guys are mostly consumers, and they are very important, and one of the reasons that the industry is so shot full of crass marketing. Look at any Stereophile review, particularly where the 'sound' is discussed. But it is a fact that the engineers and technical folk have studied for years just what it is that makes a good amp, but have mostly failed, at this stage, to nail it. In time, they will, I am sure.
There is more to the design of these beasts than merely measured thd, FR, and slew rate. Much more. And until this is universally realised, and people find out how and why, there will be this accusatory, bitter feud between the subjectivists and the objectivists. And those that dogmatically make their points by decibel will prove nothing until some concrete correlation emerges between the technical analysis and the mechanisms of subjective assessment by the human species. Of course, it does no good at all that we tend to measure with one or two sine tones when the subjective assessment is invariably performed with music......
Program will now resume.....
Cheers,
Hugh
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I will unsubscribe from this thread, as i told you folks...i am satisfied
and gratefull to the ones entered to give their opinions.
But while me dear friend is posting..then i will be reading as i cannot resist to read the beautifull texts he use to write (Hugh Dean)
Eva, Pavel and Andrew T are removed from my ignore list...i want to give them answers..... because not fair to them to post not having answers.
regards,
Carlos
and gratefull to the ones entered to give their opinions.
But while me dear friend is posting..then i will be reading as i cannot resist to read the beautifull texts he use to write (Hugh Dean)
Eva, Pavel and Andrew T are removed from my ignore list...i want to give them answers..... because not fair to them to post not having answers.
regards,
Carlos
Lenthy disourse, hugh, that would deserve more than this thread
coloumns to be answered to, but i ll try to catch some of yours griefs..
Agree about the odd results between listening and electrical specs,
but i never saw an amp that did measure bad and sound well.
Hiraga, although competent in many way, was some sort of
die hard subjectivist whose conclusions where often at odd
with the rest of the community, but as far as i rememeber,
and since we are discussing a particular topology,
he did greatly cheer JM Plantefeve s symmetrical differential
amp and made about it a warmish article in "L'Audiophile" review,
praising its sound caracteristics...
You can read that i didn talk about distorsion ,slew rate and so on,
yet, you make as if it was the case and conclude with emphasis
about hypotheticals holdings and borderings..
My point is that there s intellectual dishonnesty to use two
badly designed amps and then compare them with his "own" design,
that is slightly less flawed , and then brand the latter as superior
sound wise.
How can we discuss the merits of any topology using such
unscientific datas as basis to reach a conclusion , that can
only be an erroneous one, and then display it at as general truth ?..
You are often a contributing guy , but beware to not be supporter
of a particular position for the only reason than the holders of these
views generally have good relations with you, or support your ideas.
There s nothing to gain from such relations based preferences when
it comes to a technical debate which must stay as scientific as
possible to manage to have any added value...
cheers,
wahab
coloumns to be answered to, but i ll try to catch some of yours griefs..
Agree about the odd results between listening and electrical specs,
but i never saw an amp that did measure bad and sound well.
Hiraga, although competent in many way, was some sort of
die hard subjectivist whose conclusions where often at odd
with the rest of the community, but as far as i rememeber,
and since we are discussing a particular topology,
he did greatly cheer JM Plantefeve s symmetrical differential
amp and made about it a warmish article in "L'Audiophile" review,
praising its sound caracteristics...
You can read that i didn talk about distorsion ,slew rate and so on,
yet, you make as if it was the case and conclude with emphasis
about hypotheticals holdings and borderings..
My point is that there s intellectual dishonnesty to use two
badly designed amps and then compare them with his "own" design,
that is slightly less flawed , and then brand the latter as superior
sound wise.
How can we discuss the merits of any topology using such
unscientific datas as basis to reach a conclusion , that can
only be an erroneous one, and then display it at as general truth ?..
You are often a contributing guy , but beware to not be supporter
of a particular position for the only reason than the holders of these
views generally have good relations with you, or support your ideas.
There s nothing to gain from such relations based preferences when
it comes to a technical debate which must stay as scientific as
possible to manage to have any added value...
cheers,
wahab
Oh!... it is an awsome moment, a honor to be in your presence
so clever, so intelligent and so skilled man.... Wahab...the first and the great..even Hugh Dean needs your advice and instructions about audio.
I think, having sad feelings about...that you came too late to this forum..we forgot the red carpet for so skilled and superior man that "landed" here to save us from the deep ignorance..... you know, reading your texts i think forum could delete all have made and start all over again opening a permanent thread to Wahab spread precious, deep and unknown know how to us...poor mortals we are... i think without you we are nothing dear Wahab.
Sometimes i perceive your presence as divine..bringing the best from the best.., the cream from the cream for us.
You culture make me feel ashamed by my ignorance..unbeliavable..you can even speak french?
Honored by your presence,
Carlos
so clever, so intelligent and so skilled man.... Wahab...the first and the great..even Hugh Dean needs your advice and instructions about audio.
I think, having sad feelings about...that you came too late to this forum..we forgot the red carpet for so skilled and superior man that "landed" here to save us from the deep ignorance..... you know, reading your texts i think forum could delete all have made and start all over again opening a permanent thread to Wahab spread precious, deep and unknown know how to us...poor mortals we are... i think without you we are nothing dear Wahab.
Sometimes i perceive your presence as divine..bringing the best from the best.., the cream from the cream for us.
You culture make me feel ashamed by my ignorance..unbeliavable..you can even speak french?
Honored by your presence,
Carlos
Since the technical discussion doesn t suit you , you go on
trying to ridiculize the others.
Perhaps it s your main "skill" ? .
I can only advice you to find some better arguments rather
than exposing yourself this way, that is, desesperately
trashing whoever is seeming to contradict your sayings...
Of course that i speak french , along with a few other languages,
since i already wrote that i made my studies there...
That said, you are right on a point , that i came late by there,
since a lot of valuable people did abandon this forum.
Fortunately, there s some that are still there , among them
Pavel, Jcx, Unclejed, keantoken, Kenpeter and Ilimzn , just to
name a few , who are helpful and provide very good technical
clues for who is able to put his ego aside and is ready to learn..
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Oh!... honored once again...now we have dear Pavel.
I am glad he have accepted my invitation to visit my threads (the ones i use to open) to contribute using his special know how... that is much more bigger than to repair instruments.... Pavel knows how to use Osciloscope too... and deeply...i can twist buttons...he knows more.
Dear Wahab, i feel sorry, maybe you misunderstood me.... i forgot to say that Hugh will from now on produce special amplifiers, because he is now receiving your instructions.
Was you invited to Stanford University?..... they are missing a great guy...your presence there may turn the University famous..... if they have not the kind of course you want..then they will create, and fast, to have you there.
Forum, one day will perceive need you, and will open a permanent thread, there Doctor Self and others will collect ideas and technicall formulas from you.... they will also trow their pocked calculators, or small computers and will use you..will ask you and you will tell them transistors datasheets and all those things that without you we would never have the chance to know.
Pavel also, another permanent thread, then he will be able to show, explain and teach us how to fix/repair/use Osciloscopes and to analise simulations..also how to print them to our forum correct size.... there are several amplifiers he, dear Pavel, have designed, and all those can be helpfull to clean our ignorance.
I cannot do less than collect my shoe shine box to receive so nice folks, giving you all you deserve, so many years helping people to feel good and helping people to learn electronics.
A pitty that i lost so big time not reading Pavel, Eva and Andrew T...now i know the truth..all knowledge belongs to them...others have made something but was divine inspiration only....i have perceived the ligth that comes from you..a proper ligth that comes from gênius..now i will be alike glued, attached to you, learning, producing questions and will build your amplifiers, will make reviews...will do all i can to help you the same way you were helping forum these last 5 years.
Wahab was not 5 years ago...but his presence is a multiplication..one month of his presence has the value of several years.
Thank you by your messages.... post more please...let me feel good.
regards,
Carlos
I am glad he have accepted my invitation to visit my threads (the ones i use to open) to contribute using his special know how... that is much more bigger than to repair instruments.... Pavel knows how to use Osciloscope too... and deeply...i can twist buttons...he knows more.
Dear Wahab, i feel sorry, maybe you misunderstood me.... i forgot to say that Hugh will from now on produce special amplifiers, because he is now receiving your instructions.
Was you invited to Stanford University?..... they are missing a great guy...your presence there may turn the University famous..... if they have not the kind of course you want..then they will create, and fast, to have you there.
Forum, one day will perceive need you, and will open a permanent thread, there Doctor Self and others will collect ideas and technicall formulas from you.... they will also trow their pocked calculators, or small computers and will use you..will ask you and you will tell them transistors datasheets and all those things that without you we would never have the chance to know.
Pavel also, another permanent thread, then he will be able to show, explain and teach us how to fix/repair/use Osciloscopes and to analise simulations..also how to print them to our forum correct size.... there are several amplifiers he, dear Pavel, have designed, and all those can be helpfull to clean our ignorance.
I cannot do less than collect my shoe shine box to receive so nice folks, giving you all you deserve, so many years helping people to feel good and helping people to learn electronics.
A pitty that i lost so big time not reading Pavel, Eva and Andrew T...now i know the truth..all knowledge belongs to them...others have made something but was divine inspiration only....i have perceived the ligth that comes from you..a proper ligth that comes from gênius..now i will be alike glued, attached to you, learning, producing questions and will build your amplifiers, will make reviews...will do all i can to help you the same way you were helping forum these last 5 years.
Wahab was not 5 years ago...but his presence is a multiplication..one month of his presence has the value of several years.
Thank you by your messages.... post more please...let me feel good.
regards,
Carlos
Evaluate things?... without you dear Pavel?.. this is impossible
so, build my amplifiers, and them you can evaluate to me.... since that beautifull moment of my life, then i will know what to say about my amplifiers.
Maybe you can give me permission to say my amplifier plays music...
Maybe noise...it is all rigth?
Is this Ok to you?.. show me one from you..something your creativity have worked...not something Epupa will borrow to you..something from your mind...have something made?.... i can assemble and evaluate too....not mine ones..as you do not gave me permission..but yours, if published, then i can evaluate.
Maybe this is the reason you do not make amplifiers.... i think you know how to make them..if not i can show you..first you have to study ohms law..and then......ask datasheets, Wahab can do that for you...third you ......
regards,
Carlos
so, build my amplifiers, and them you can evaluate to me.... since that beautifull moment of my life, then i will know what to say about my amplifiers.
Maybe you can give me permission to say my amplifier plays music...
Maybe noise...it is all rigth?
Is this Ok to you?.. show me one from you..something your creativity have worked...not something Epupa will borrow to you..something from your mind...have something made?.... i can assemble and evaluate too....not mine ones..as you do not gave me permission..but yours, if published, then i can evaluate.
Maybe this is the reason you do not make amplifiers.... i think you know how to make them..if not i can show you..first you have to study ohms law..and then......ask datasheets, Wahab can do that for you...third you ......
regards,
Carlos
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They provided very good clues to many people by there,
including me of course.
Now, about your case , you suffer from typical social
based superiority complex..
You once said that people with your knowledge in matter
of electronics are rare in your country , so , with time,
you must now appears there as a sort of guru in audio.
Fact is that you can t gain the same admiration on
an international forum since there s scores f people
that not only match, but also outmatch you in this matter,
and it seems that you just do not stand it.
You ll have to live with it and stop treating people the way
you are , which is some sort of colonialist style behaviour that
is common for people having in their country a higher social status,
as they think that the deference they are given where they live
is still a due wherever they go in the world, including in this forum.
So clever...only from you i could have the chance to read this
words, the perfect analisis..so precise you are.
And gênius.... have started 2009 and already knows a lot!...more than everybody.... a consultant.
One day i will show your picture to my son.... better, i will put in my laboratory to serve as inspiration.... will say to my son to be alike you when have your age.
Say more for us... send me your glorious picture please... will put in my lab.
What do you think about electrons dear Wahab..do they spin clockwise or counterclockwise?
For sure you could testimony that!... at least, if you confirm, i will believe in you.
Well Wahab... telling you the real thing..you make me tired when i read your posts...you know... too much effort to understand all those clever logic loops...it is tiring man... you are too much to me... really, too much, one of the less stupid guys i have ever met.
On time....i can arrange to you to start a National Conference about Brazil - Brazilian problems - Brazilian social analisis..only you can accept that.... to the federal Government..they may learn from you about Brazil....you also can tell them we can speak spanish.
regards,
Carlos
words, the perfect analisis..so precise you are.
And gênius.... have started 2009 and already knows a lot!...more than everybody.... a consultant.
One day i will show your picture to my son.... better, i will put in my laboratory to serve as inspiration.... will say to my son to be alike you when have your age.
Say more for us... send me your glorious picture please... will put in my lab.
What do you think about electrons dear Wahab..do they spin clockwise or counterclockwise?
For sure you could testimony that!... at least, if you confirm, i will believe in you.
Well Wahab... telling you the real thing..you make me tired when i read your posts...you know... too much effort to understand all those clever logic loops...it is tiring man... you are too much to me... really, too much, one of the less stupid guys i have ever met.
On time....i can arrange to you to start a National Conference about Brazil - Brazilian problems - Brazilian social analisis..only you can accept that.... to the federal Government..they may learn from you about Brazil....you also can tell them we can speak spanish.
regards,
Carlos
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My main influence in electronic design , a friend
who is a german engineer never came to this forum,
but i suppose that if he comes tomorrow, he will be also
branded an absolute beginner despite he s close to 60..
I do not think that someone s picture is relevant in respect
of a technical discussion, but if you need to have a
face to materialize to give credit to someone s sayings,
you can also find me there :
abdelwahab boukara on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads
Will be a pleasure to have you as a friend in this site.
He means nothing ,Pavel , he just think that everybody is like him,
searching for a vain and pityful glory, and as such , one need
a kingdom of blinds so the one eyed can be king.
Anyway, we are far from electrical design , and i won t
answer no more to such childish characters...
Thank you for your patience.
I don't have the time to weed out the latest trash in this thread right now but I am hoping to make this point clear:
The next person to go off topic, make facetious comments, be sarcastic or belittle another member will be sitting in the penalty box for a week. Your bantering is more than objectionable, it's downright annoying.
I think maybe I could shed a little light from being a millitary commander in the distant past having to deal with conglic management. Although I see the thread falling to pieces and camps being set-up on both sides glaring at each other, ready to take up arms, I would like to highlight the topic of this thread -
Carlos claims that he has fallen in love with a simpler blameless topology and has not found a balanced full complimentary semetrical design that has pleased him - and that is a very valid statement - regardles of who he is what he has done in the past and how he is regarded in his own social circle. There may be several other things that Carlos enjoys for which there is no absolute scientific explanation, for instance, he prefers a certain brand of coffee slightly blended with goat droppings and showly roasted.
On the other side of the fence, there is wahab. Wahab follows the written laws as if nothing can be compared against it, an emipical designer with a deep understanding of specification and also hooked on dual complementary symetry, Wahab also enjoys drinkin from the toilet bowl, which is radical but not onbjectional.
You cannot fault either of these guys who was mentored over a long period of time and brainwashed into their different trains of though.
Neither of these gentlemen are right nor wrong when the spectators are interrogated, but some spectators may side with one faction rather than the other for personal belief, religious issues or just common sense.
Carlos has in my opinion evaluated a product of dubious origin agains his own produc which he knows inside out and as the story goes tell us it is rubbish. Carlos being a man of very many words, some not always coherent, but if you study them there is some sense in it concluded that to him the one is definately better than the other.
Wahab and their were a few others that took what Carlos said about a product very personally as an attack on their integrity which of course did not even cross his mind. This product was according to Wahab flawed in ways the it would affect the products performance and from that resulted in Carlos not enjoying what he heard. Carlos never claimed he designed the amp, thus there were no reason to attack Carlos because of the errors in the design, he merely reported that it sound cr@p.
What transpired here is a mud tossing contest, and for no valid reason, in fact there is no mud to toss. Besides that the winner will be the last one who can pass a derogetrary comment moments before the thread shuts down.
Why do we not go back to the original reason for the thread and accept Carlos saying that dual differencial is cr@p as a product that was evaluated by how it sounds. We can then try an put aruments across why this should not be so.
I know that Carlos likes starting to invoke debates, I think that is the way that he learns a lot.
Carlos claims that he has fallen in love with a simpler blameless topology and has not found a balanced full complimentary semetrical design that has pleased him - and that is a very valid statement - regardles of who he is what he has done in the past and how he is regarded in his own social circle. There may be several other things that Carlos enjoys for which there is no absolute scientific explanation, for instance, he prefers a certain brand of coffee slightly blended with goat droppings and showly roasted.
On the other side of the fence, there is wahab. Wahab follows the written laws as if nothing can be compared against it, an emipical designer with a deep understanding of specification and also hooked on dual complementary symetry, Wahab also enjoys drinkin from the toilet bowl, which is radical but not onbjectional.
You cannot fault either of these guys who was mentored over a long period of time and brainwashed into their different trains of though.
Neither of these gentlemen are right nor wrong when the spectators are interrogated, but some spectators may side with one faction rather than the other for personal belief, religious issues or just common sense.
Carlos has in my opinion evaluated a product of dubious origin agains his own produc which he knows inside out and as the story goes tell us it is rubbish. Carlos being a man of very many words, some not always coherent, but if you study them there is some sense in it concluded that to him the one is definately better than the other.
Wahab and their were a few others that took what Carlos said about a product very personally as an attack on their integrity which of course did not even cross his mind. This product was according to Wahab flawed in ways the it would affect the products performance and from that resulted in Carlos not enjoying what he heard. Carlos never claimed he designed the amp, thus there were no reason to attack Carlos because of the errors in the design, he merely reported that it sound cr@p.
What transpired here is a mud tossing contest, and for no valid reason, in fact there is no mud to toss. Besides that the winner will be the last one who can pass a derogetrary comment moments before the thread shuts down.
Why do we not go back to the original reason for the thread and accept Carlos saying that dual differencial is cr@p as a product that was evaluated by how it sounds. We can then try an put aruments across why this should not be so.
I know that Carlos likes starting to invoke debates, I think that is the way that he learns a lot.
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