Why did you miss it then?Maybe in your case I should post a lot more?...............with a note😀
Just to provide some actual information on skin effect here is the chart used by all transformer mfg's, who build devices where skin effect can cause fires, if not taken into account.
Bud
Markus, no. Under realistic conditions the skin effect has no audible impact. A 30 ft 11 AWG cable will reduce the level at 20 kHz by 0.04 dB.
I think you'd better check you basic electrical fundamentals if you think I^2R is a voltage loss. Come on this is simple ohms law. I^2R is the power lost to heat through resistance.
When I said that skin effect doesn't occur with in the audio bandwidth, I meant skin effect within the audio bandwidth is insignificant and therefore of no concern, as Markus pointed out. I should have just said it that way.
I totally agree with keeping the R down, 10 gauge, by all means. But do we have to spend $1200.00 for a pair of cables to get that?
Resistance in cables does a real number on crossovers. Any significant amount of cable resistance will cause the poles of passive filters to shift and that can cause a passband ripple which is audible. The question is how much R is tolerable?
I think the effect of R on the crossover network is of far greater concern than any power loss through the cable. Power loss can be made up for (turn up the volume), but changes in the response of the crossover filters cannot and changes in the response of the crossover filters are very audible.
I totally agree with keeping the R down, 10 gauge, by all means. But do we have to spend $1200.00 for a pair of cables to get that?
Resistance in cables does a real number on crossovers. Any significant amount of cable resistance will cause the poles of passive filters to shift and that can cause a passband ripple which is audible. The question is how much R is tolerable?
I think the effect of R on the crossover network is of far greater concern than any power loss through the cable. Power loss can be made up for (turn up the volume), but changes in the response of the crossover filters cannot and changes in the response of the crossover filters are very audible.
Part tolerances in crossovers introduce "errors" that are a magnitude bigger than what any cable could ever introduce under realistic conditions. Cutting your hair will have a bigger impact. Was the audiophool haircut already discussed in this thread?
If by haircut you mean 'fleecing', then yes we have discussed the audiophile fleecing.😀
Here's my take on all of this. A loudspeaker cable is carrying a fair amount of current, with rapid voltage swings especially during musical transients. The speaker cable is going to have resistance, capacitance and inductance.
These parameters will vary with the length of cable, the gauge of cable, distance between the signal and its return path, the permittivity of the insulating dialectic etc. It is not unfeasible that the speaker cables can have an effect on the sound. Compared to other limiting factors in a hi-fi system, I believe these will tend to be subtle at best. To me it makes little sense to spend huge sums of money on speaker cables, worry about minute electrical differences when at the end of the road the signal is going to go through a passive crossover which usually involves great big coils of wire (inductors), heat dissipation and only a fraction of the amplifiers power actually moving the speaker cones. Most passive crossovers are crude devices, compared to some of the circuitry present in any other part of the system (Amplifier and DAC for instance), and their design seems to be just as much art as well as science, a balancing act of far too many compromises.
In the world of Professional Audio, they have already figured out a way around all of this -Active Loudspeaker Systems, with electronic crossovers. Each speaker driver has it's own dedicated amp, with a very short and direct path between them.
An active crossover is far more precise, you're dealing with a much smaller signal (negligible heat, electromagnetic fields etc), they don't affect the impedance that the power amp sees. Since amplifier power isn't wasted in the crossover, you don't need a hugely expensive monster to get the same sound quality.
The first active speakers I heard were they Dynaudio BM5A studio monitors. I ended up getting a pair, and for the price there is no way you could put together a conventional system and amplifiers to touch them.
Try getting a decent pair of studio monitors, and 4 monoblock power amps and boutique cables for $1,000. Even if you could, the Dyn's would still blow them away.
The problem of active loudspeaker systems in the home audio market is one of marketing, not of sound quality. Buying conventional speakers, constantly swapping out amplifiers and speaker cables is a bit like getting a Honda civic and spending $200K to trick it out, instead of getting a Ferrari. Having said that, it might be more fun to trick out the Civic but let's not confuse that with performance.
These parameters will vary with the length of cable, the gauge of cable, distance between the signal and its return path, the permittivity of the insulating dialectic etc. It is not unfeasible that the speaker cables can have an effect on the sound. Compared to other limiting factors in a hi-fi system, I believe these will tend to be subtle at best. To me it makes little sense to spend huge sums of money on speaker cables, worry about minute electrical differences when at the end of the road the signal is going to go through a passive crossover which usually involves great big coils of wire (inductors), heat dissipation and only a fraction of the amplifiers power actually moving the speaker cones. Most passive crossovers are crude devices, compared to some of the circuitry present in any other part of the system (Amplifier and DAC for instance), and their design seems to be just as much art as well as science, a balancing act of far too many compromises.
In the world of Professional Audio, they have already figured out a way around all of this -Active Loudspeaker Systems, with electronic crossovers. Each speaker driver has it's own dedicated amp, with a very short and direct path between them.
An active crossover is far more precise, you're dealing with a much smaller signal (negligible heat, electromagnetic fields etc), they don't affect the impedance that the power amp sees. Since amplifier power isn't wasted in the crossover, you don't need a hugely expensive monster to get the same sound quality.
The first active speakers I heard were they Dynaudio BM5A studio monitors. I ended up getting a pair, and for the price there is no way you could put together a conventional system and amplifiers to touch them.
Try getting a decent pair of studio monitors, and 4 monoblock power amps and boutique cables for $1,000. Even if you could, the Dyn's would still blow them away.
The problem of active loudspeaker systems in the home audio market is one of marketing, not of sound quality. Buying conventional speakers, constantly swapping out amplifiers and speaker cables is a bit like getting a Honda civic and spending $200K to trick it out, instead of getting a Ferrari. Having said that, it might be more fun to trick out the Civic but let's not confuse that with performance.
If good is good enough, don't mind. 🙂
There are more to it than power loss but even ignoring that, put an active load on the other end of the cable and do the calculations again. 😉
Panicos,
What's the problem here then, if there is one? Would it be better with expensive speaker cable?
(And please, don't flight behind 44 ga speaker cable).
BTW Anybody know what a *non symmetrical stereo image* is?
jd
Actually,I wouldn't have any problem if someone had a cable only on one of his speakers🙂........and Markus,please don't tell me you have and still sounds good😎
Yes and somehow we are all buyers at the same time... I was talking about people that have the word "sales" in their job description.
Some years ago,a customer came to the store and was asking for a speaker cable that at that time cost around $4000+ for the length he required including termination.I asked him if he was sure he wanted that and suggested that he heard other options too.He replied no,I want that one.After a brief discussion it was obvious he wouldn't change his mind.In the afternoon of the same day,his cables were installed in his system-an expensive one and very good sounding system too-and everybody was happy.Where is the problem with that sale,or the salesman in your opinion?The only thing that could change for that customer is the sales man that would get his money.Tell me about those with an expensive car,huge houses,and everything else around you.A good sales man can sell almost anything.As for the expensive stuff?No difference whatsoever.Some people may charge you unbelievable money for just sending you a letter,or see you for a few minutes and tell you which medicine to buy..........Are we living on the same planet?
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I don't think so because I do see a difference between a doctor "selling" me his expertise and someone selling me a piece of cable for $4000 just because marketing told me so.
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