I should clarify that my lengthy post tried to answer the question "how long do components take to burn / run in?" My view clearly is this phenomenon in the main does not exist, and I tried to explain how the term is used by some marketers to embellish the value of their product.
My opinion has formed through my personal experiences, experiments, and association with professional people in the fields that I have worked in and with. This includes technical roles plus sales and marketing roles.
When people understand how much time and money is spent in finding out how to flip the subliminal switches within consumers they begin to grasp why people will pay anything for something that just feels right. This is an emotional response or a sale based on feelings (most sales are).
To me the ultimate expression of the emotional sale is the Ferrari. There are better performing cars (not many granted) than a red Ferrari, but these cars are not red Ferraris and people emotionally want Ferraris (can I say that I love Italians and all things Italian).
Similarly I have no problem with people paying any amount of money for anything they desire. As a sales and marketer I fully understand and indeed support peoples need to satisfy whatever purchasing drivers (legal and moral) they have. I have no problem with people dreaming of owning and eventually paying $2,000 for a higher end Yamaha or $20,000+ for a Pass or JC something. To me it's like buying the Ferrari.
What I do feel compelled to comment on is the misuse of terms that have legitimate meaning in one area but have no real relationship in another, especially when advantage is taken from it.
Using the cable example; by all means promote the quality of construction, the beauty of the design and even the electrical properties it has (provided they're real) and get as much for this cable as the consumer is willing to pay. But let's sell the cable not the "burn-in" magic.
Quasi
My opinion has formed through my personal experiences, experiments, and association with professional people in the fields that I have worked in and with. This includes technical roles plus sales and marketing roles.
When people understand how much time and money is spent in finding out how to flip the subliminal switches within consumers they begin to grasp why people will pay anything for something that just feels right. This is an emotional response or a sale based on feelings (most sales are).
To me the ultimate expression of the emotional sale is the Ferrari. There are better performing cars (not many granted) than a red Ferrari, but these cars are not red Ferraris and people emotionally want Ferraris (can I say that I love Italians and all things Italian).
Similarly I have no problem with people paying any amount of money for anything they desire. As a sales and marketer I fully understand and indeed support peoples need to satisfy whatever purchasing drivers (legal and moral) they have. I have no problem with people dreaming of owning and eventually paying $2,000 for a higher end Yamaha or $20,000+ for a Pass or JC something. To me it's like buying the Ferrari.
What I do feel compelled to comment on is the misuse of terms that have legitimate meaning in one area but have no real relationship in another, especially when advantage is taken from it.
Using the cable example; by all means promote the quality of construction, the beauty of the design and even the electrical properties it has (provided they're real) and get as much for this cable as the consumer is willing to pay. But let's sell the cable not the "burn-in" magic.
Quasi
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Reminds me of an early van den Hull IC cable.
Normally an off the spool Drebes&Berkenhoff industrial item, a buck the foot in Dermany, but bought at the audio boutique it was already burnt-in (with vdH printing)
(F'ies drive fantastic, if only i didn't hate Maranello Tifosies so much, i can't even force myself to write the brand name in full)
Normally an off the spool Drebes&Berkenhoff industrial item, a buck the foot in Dermany, but bought at the audio boutique it was already burnt-in (with vdH printing)
(F'ies drive fantastic, if only i didn't hate Maranello Tifosies so much, i can't even force myself to write the brand name in full)
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The cartoon posted above has been on my refrigerator for the last 5 years. It represents one reviewer's feelings about one of my amplifier designs. It is what we are going through right now with a pair of JC-1 power amps. Unfortunately, it is our reality. Yours may differ.
I feel sorry for that customer.
You must be greatful he is a faithful believer and not try to sue you.
You must be greatful he is a faithful believer and not try to sue you.
Actually, it was Sue Kraft, reviewer of the JC-1 power amp for 'The Absolute Sound' who sent the cartoon to me. It is reality as we know it.
I've been at some TAS listening sessions.
Frankly I don't know why the subjectivist community is so offended at the possibilty that they are imagining differences. Their complete listening experience is giving them more pleasure. The pleasure people get from fantasies is real. If any "test" causes bad karma that destroys the magic so what?
Why do you even post on these subjects then... Professor Curl if you don't care what anyone else hears or thinks (re: differences or not)... doesn't make for a very convincing argument (nor does lack of evidence, which you seem to rely on heavily). Also, where are all the other luminaries' posts supporting your opinions of high end audio issues on DIY audio? Geddes? Pass? Hansen?" Cordell? etc. The silence is deafening...
For those auditioning high end cables in take home tests, how do you ascertain whether or not the cables you've borrowed haven't alreadfy been previously borrowed and "burned in" before? Is there some sort of "tell" on the cable that allows this to be determined? Seems a dealer might go broke supplying fresh expensive cables to all those wishing for the "virginal burn-in experience"...😉😕
Earth to Andre
So that's your answer? Pretty weak... doesn't have anything to do with "plater logic" whatever the hell that is... how would one know if a dealer gave you a virgin device, wire, etc., vs. one that someone had tried out and returned after x (hrs., days,weeks) of burn in. Would you simply rely on his/her honesty? Perhaps the factory "burns in" their (wires, amps,cd's, speakers) prior to shipping. How do you know? 😕
After all, this claim was one made supporting the believers discounting arguments against "burn-in".
So that's your answer? Pretty weak... doesn't have anything to do with "plater logic" whatever the hell that is... how would one know if a dealer gave you a virgin device, wire, etc., vs. one that someone had tried out and returned after x (hrs., days,weeks) of burn in. Would you simply rely on his/her honesty? Perhaps the factory "burns in" their (wires, amps,cd's, speakers) prior to shipping. How do you know? 😕
After all, this claim was one made supporting the believers discounting arguments against "burn-in".
If someone cannot hear a difference, it is easy to dismiss them as untrained, uncouth, or just plain over-educated in what is possible. It is the people who hear differences, especially on a relatively consistent basis, that I worry about.
Now John, I don't dismiss you in that way at all just because you can't hear these magical differences. You're being much too hard on yourself.
There is little or no sense in evaluating or comparing new equipment / cables with burned in equipment. Apart from trusting the dealer to tell you whether it is a burned-in unit / cable, the only way to know is to listen and compare with known equipment, then let it burn in for a few days and compare again, repeat untill you hear there is no more change in SQ. I prefer to do the burn-in with dummy loads to prevent "burning-in of the ears" as you guys call it. 🙂
So it should be clear that a burned-in unit will save you a lot of time when you do evaluations.
My cartoon has been erased! Foul! Censorship! It just goes to show what kind of people run this place.
There's only one message from you that's been erased and that was erased by you. It simply contained the word "test."
Please stay out of it, I worked hard to get Sue's cartoon up on this website. Now, it is gone, no thanks to you.
Why has no one mentioned the fact that human hearing is adaptive. I notice my hearing adapting to the sound of a particular system in a particular room regularly - first impressions are marginal, then it seems to get better. If I walk out of the room for a while and come back in, it's changed back to marginal.
It wouldn't surprise me if the idea of burn in was created by a salesman trying to explain to a customer why an expensive system didn't sound very good. Burn in period should be about 1 day longer than the warranty.🙂
<edit> the point about tubes needing time to reach thermal stability is true, but I wouldn't call that burn-in, that's warm-up.
It wouldn't surprise me if the idea of burn in was created by a salesman trying to explain to a customer why an expensive system didn't sound very good. Burn in period should be about 1 day longer than the warranty.🙂
<edit> the point about tubes needing time to reach thermal stability is true, but I wouldn't call that burn-in, that's warm-up.
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