Hi,
I think the cool/hot thing is a matter of thermal stability not (primary) of the tempearture itself. You only reach this thermal stability (where e.g. constant currents are constant) after some time of warming up (not cooling down because of physics). When this point is reached, amps do sound better normally because they were designed for this state and e.g. distortion might decrease until then.
What temperture corresponds to this point depends on a lot of system-dependent factors. If the (exactly identical) amlifier sound better when it's hotter? I don't know but I'm sure that if an effect like this exists it is of second order.
Just 2 ct
Floric
I think the cool/hot thing is a matter of thermal stability not (primary) of the tempearture itself. You only reach this thermal stability (where e.g. constant currents are constant) after some time of warming up (not cooling down because of physics). When this point is reached, amps do sound better normally because they were designed for this state and e.g. distortion might decrease until then.
What temperture corresponds to this point depends on a lot of system-dependent factors. If the (exactly identical) amlifier sound better when it's hotter? I don't know but I'm sure that if an effect like this exists it is of second order.
Just 2 ct
Floric
You are right, I read moolys post and interpreted it the way that he was talking about thermal effects not temporary effects.
If a "burn in" exists? I'm not sure but I think I often noticed an effect like this for electronic components (capacitors, semiconductors) but it might be psychological.
Regarding loudspeakers, especially paper cones, I am quite sure of a burn in time that might last for days or even weeks.
Sorry for the misunderstanding
Floric
Exactly. It's a different (and real) phenomenon. After all, does a cold tube conduct?😀
SY,
As Floric, I've interpreted Mooly's post as about warm-up and to me he's writing clearly about it.
It's all very relative! It depends very much on the parts used in the pieces of equipment; in the technology of the speakers (dynamic, electrostatic, and more specific variations); and for the interconnects, whether they're stranded or solid-core, what type and arrangement of dielectric they have...
Mooly, c'mon! 😀
Sure there are examples on the contrary but you can't find them with final designs because the designer added cooling or changed parts for better ones...
If the operational temperature is safe and the circuit works as expected why bother with additional cooling?
All gear is optimized at their operational temperature, so it's not strange that operates better at such temperature, it's so by design.
It would be strange if a designer does a circuit optimized for the first 10 minutes of operation and when it reach a stable temperature it still works but not so well as in the firsts minutes... wouldn't be? 😉
What I am refering to is warm up.
A competently designed solid state piece of kit shouldn't need it, and if it can be proved that it really does sound better by being "warmed up" then I hold that the design is suspect.
As to burning in... resistors, IC's, transistors, cables 😉... it just doesn't happen. I would say the same for all "normal" caps that I have ever come across and the same is true even though some are "wet chemical devices".
I do go as far as bringing electroylitics up to working voltage slowly then discharge slowly if they are in the signal path, but that's all.
Speakers can definitely change through use and environmental variables.
🙂
A competently designed solid state piece of kit shouldn't need it, and if it can be proved that it really does sound better by being "warmed up" then I hold that the design is suspect.
As to burning in... resistors, IC's, transistors, cables 😉... it just doesn't happen. I would say the same for all "normal" caps that I have ever come across and the same is true even though some are "wet chemical devices".
I do go as far as bringing electroylitics up to working voltage slowly then discharge slowly if they are in the signal path, but that's all.
Speakers can definitely change through use and environmental variables.
🙂
We have some vacuum tube kit in the house and I think they change slowly over time. I think it is the cathode reacting to the heat. I know they are supposed to get hot, but it seems to change them over time. Perhaps this is normal though, and not 'burn-in'.
J.
J.
Actually even wire wears out slowly - heat and over voltage do wear on it over time and it becomes brittle.
Mooly, you have really gone off the 'deep end' and even SY. who hardly believes in anything, is taking some exception. We have compared 'broken in' line cords and wires with NON-'broken-in' line cords and wires and heard the difference. It might not matter in your system, surely, but if someone has carefully make a system of the best components, at any price, a specially treated room, etc, then these differences come out. We have one such place in my area, the listening room of one of my eye surgeons. I was there, when we made comparisons, years ago.
It is often annoying to have to relinquish one's personal broken-in line cord, because it really sounds better, and then go home with a perfectly made, but NON-broken-in, line cord and have to break it in, in your own sound system, just like you did the original. I have seen it done, and complained about.
The REAL WORLD is not as simple as many, especially technicians, have been lead to believe. Please remember, I was once a technician, myself, (48 years ago) and have some idea of what you have been taught in school.
And especially those who are military trained. They give you the simplest world they can, and many of you learn little else. No wonder this looks like magic or delusion.
It is often annoying to have to relinquish one's personal broken-in line cord, because it really sounds better, and then go home with a perfectly made, but NON-broken-in, line cord and have to break it in, in your own sound system, just like you did the original. I have seen it done, and complained about.
The REAL WORLD is not as simple as many, especially technicians, have been lead to believe. Please remember, I was once a technician, myself, (48 years ago) and have some idea of what you have been taught in school.
And especially those who are military trained. They give you the simplest world they can, and many of you learn little else. No wonder this looks like magic or delusion.
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IF you have the system - the ears - and the experience - you will see what JC is trying to explain to you. The way I got away from that problem - I don't have the ears or the gear and stopped chasing that shadow of "best" long ago. I'm happy when good enough is good enough - but understand that is simply MY opinion and I don't intend to imply that it should be anyone else's.
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