Don't put me such ideas please🙂
Do you think a gold plated fuse will help flavour richness ???
EDIT: To save precious space for the thread,I'll say I agree with you and not use any fancy cable and fuse on my coffee machine,but I will keep my audio cables 🙂
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I havent really been following this thread but a few months ago mentioned I replced my speaker wires w/ solid core 20 amp romex. The difference was huge.. more clarity, more bass, etc. I just this week replaced my budget $160.00 output tx's w/ a super nice $700.00 pair, and I swear the speaker cable change made a much bigger difference. Not just to me who knows the costs, etc.. but to the entire family.. they all noticed a big change w/ the cables.. and not much of anything w/ this BIG (monitarily) change
Talk about opening up a can of worms on this topic 🙂
Here is what I personally discovered, be nice to know if anyone else went this route.
I did some test years ago comparing speaker and interconnect cables with some of my buddies.
We found that cable performance differences are fairly noticable in mid to higher end equipment in blind A-B tests.
One of the guys put a small fortunes worth of cables on his visa (deposit) to be able to borrow them for home testing purposes.
The skies the limit when looking at high performance manufactured cables though, eventually I decided to go the diy route.
Here are a couple of diy cables almost anyone can afford to try, I find they work surprisingly well myself.
For speaker wires try braided cat5e or cat6 cables, I made a variant of the cables shown on humblehomemadehifi website.
I did a tight braid which gives an interesting snakeskin appearance, mixing colors can enhance the effect as well.
I am currently using a set of 6 wire cat5e cables (24 ga blue & white) on my mid high towers. I have also made a set of 9 wire cat5e
cables (24 ga white) for bass applications. The cables work so well, that my somewhat pricey Audioquest Midnight speaker cables
are sitting on a shelf. I also have some cat6 cable on hand (23 ga) but haven't tried it yet. The larger gauge would make it a better
choice for at least bass, and the improved shielding characteristics/bandwidth may be of benefit to all frequencies.
For interconnects, try RG 174/U coax cable.
I found that it outperformed many mid/high end manufactured premium interconnects from Audioquest and a few other brands that I
no longer recall. I managed to get a half box (500' per box) from a local electrical supplier for a super deal because they wanted to
get it out of their inventory. I later found out that a local tv broadcast company used the same wire for custom audio/video patch
cables. It makes for a nice compact cable and helps to keep things clean behind the equipment.
For both speaker and interconnect cables, I just used bulk gold plated connectors available locally and off of ebay.
The wire ends can be cleaned up with color coded electrical tape or heat shrink.
If you know some computer techs or cable installers, you can probably get a bunch of 15 foot pieces for free, hard to beat that price 🙂
Here is what I personally discovered, be nice to know if anyone else went this route.
I did some test years ago comparing speaker and interconnect cables with some of my buddies.
We found that cable performance differences are fairly noticable in mid to higher end equipment in blind A-B tests.
One of the guys put a small fortunes worth of cables on his visa (deposit) to be able to borrow them for home testing purposes.
The skies the limit when looking at high performance manufactured cables though, eventually I decided to go the diy route.
Here are a couple of diy cables almost anyone can afford to try, I find they work surprisingly well myself.
For speaker wires try braided cat5e or cat6 cables, I made a variant of the cables shown on humblehomemadehifi website.
I did a tight braid which gives an interesting snakeskin appearance, mixing colors can enhance the effect as well.
I am currently using a set of 6 wire cat5e cables (24 ga blue & white) on my mid high towers. I have also made a set of 9 wire cat5e
cables (24 ga white) for bass applications. The cables work so well, that my somewhat pricey Audioquest Midnight speaker cables
are sitting on a shelf. I also have some cat6 cable on hand (23 ga) but haven't tried it yet. The larger gauge would make it a better
choice for at least bass, and the improved shielding characteristics/bandwidth may be of benefit to all frequencies.
For interconnects, try RG 174/U coax cable.
I found that it outperformed many mid/high end manufactured premium interconnects from Audioquest and a few other brands that I
no longer recall. I managed to get a half box (500' per box) from a local electrical supplier for a super deal because they wanted to
get it out of their inventory. I later found out that a local tv broadcast company used the same wire for custom audio/video patch
cables. It makes for a nice compact cable and helps to keep things clean behind the equipment.
For both speaker and interconnect cables, I just used bulk gold plated connectors available locally and off of ebay.
The wire ends can be cleaned up with color coded electrical tape or heat shrink.
If you know some computer techs or cable installers, you can probably get a bunch of 15 foot pieces for free, hard to beat that price 🙂
Attachments
SY I've been civil completely & above board with you concerning this wire issue since day one. You knew my amp was an SET but, apparently after listing all my components for you & for reasons I don't quite understand I've been relegated to being a person with components to ridicule. I'm both hurt & saddened to see how quickly & easily you're willing to start insulting me by calling the preamp section of my Mastersound Reference 845 an idiot-designed preamp that's marginally stable! What makes you think it's "marginally stable?" I've owned this amp for eight years and the only problem it's ever had was a diode bridge failed and had to be replaced. Is that how you'd expect a "marginally stable" audio component would be behaving over the course of 8 years?
You should also consider how various members of the Central Florida Audio Society, Space Coast Audio Society and SETriodes group have been visited my home. In eight years I've owned the Mastersound don't you believe at least one of these people would have noticed a sonic problem "if" one existed? When we get together we can be brutally honest about what what a system's strengths & weaknesses are. Some of these people have very expensive (50K-$85K) completely solid-state systems with which to compare the sound of my system against, and yet after listening my system, oft when they're leaving, I've been pulled aside to be told "This is one of the better sounding systems I've ever heard!
I'd like to inform you that despite your implied belief of ----with my amp's preamp section "if" the capacitance of the IC is all over the place there'll be a huge effect--- (my paraphraseTG) whenever I've exchanged various ICs in the past be they 47 Labs, Harmonic Truthlink, Audience Gold, a custom design, Mike Rispoli's Gen VII, Grover Silver, cheap Tara Labs, Radio Shack-like ICs and a pair of home made ICs using military silver-copper wires, the effects were subtle. One had to really listen to be able discern differences! The ONLY time there was a large noticable difference towards "this really sounds like live music" as opposed to the more subtle changing of sonic perspective or flavor, is when the Stealth Sakras were inserted. I don't see why you couldn't simply measure their capacitance to see if they're all over the place or not and get this question over and done with! SY I can tell you that I heard (albeit to a lesser degree because the home theater system doesn't have the resolution my audio system does) the same sonic change on my solid-state cheap Pioneer receiver & solid state cheap Sanyo DVD player in my home theater with the Saka inserted so I very seriously doubt the Sakras are an IC with capacitance that's all over the place!
SY I really had a lot of respect for you up till now but with your rapid change in tone and character of how you're speaking about my audio components. I'm starting to think otherwise about you. Regardless of what you believe, to start calling my equipment "idiot-designed" or to say any sonic differences are the results of "designer incompetence" is rude. You could have addressed the points more civilly by stating; "I see what I believe are possible potential problems with TG's amp, due to the 100K of source impedance that could nullify the test results.
SY you haven't even listened to see "if" these problems are audible and you haven't measured the capacitance of the two ICs to see if they'd be a problem. As I've already told you I've used numerous different ICs and the results up till now were almost ALWAYS very subtle. Sometimes the changes were more significant than others but, not usually. Many times yes, they could be heard but, one had to really listen. IMHO when the changes are these subtle they aren't worth worrying over.
If you believe my integrated amp is suspect because of the preamp section having a 100k of source impedance, even without listening to it to see if you even hear any irregularities, we could either use an IC that doesn't have capacitance that's all over the place or we could flip a switch and turn the Mastersound into just an amp and use a preamp we both approve of. Of course I'd have to have he time to get intimitely familair with it the new preamp! Do you have such a preamp you could loan me?
SY I've owned some very nice solid state pieces in the past. Since you mentioned John Curl's preamps I'll start with the original JC-2 preamp from the Mark Levinson line of components. I've also owned the GAS Thaedra preamp, a Metaxas Opulence preamp (I actually wished I could have kept the Metaxas, but finances forced the sale.) Harman Kardon Citation 11 preamp, Infinity FET preamp & David Belles' OCM 88 preamp. Those are the ones I remember. I wouldn't trade the Mastersound for any of them. Sonically I'd be down-grading. For the almost $13K the Mastersound cost I could have purchased a great solid state preamp and power amp "IF" I had chosen to! The reason I didn't is because the Mastersound sounded the closest I've ever heard an audio component come to what I believe live, unamplified music sounds like, period.
I'm assuming from what you've posted the DBT we were going to do is now dead SY. I hope you find another person willing to submit for you. Perhaps "if" you do they won't own an a piece of audio crap, like you now believe i do...
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
Maybe you should simply learn to read more carefully before throwing a victim fit. SY was answering my question and he stated "IF TG has some idiot-designed preamp that's marginally stable and has 100k of source impedance, ten indeed any "test" of ICs is useless- one is measuring designer incompetence, not wire." Note the IF. At no point did he in fact state your gear was defective or poor in any way. He merely stated good engineering sense that IF your preamp was marginally stable or the source Z was too high then differences in performance could be due to loading from different cables. I agree with him that it should be ascertained beforehand to ensure that this test is a valid test of cable differences, not the equipment itself.
Member
Joined 2002
I think you have mis read SY's post. Please don't back out because of it.
Point is not to make a BIG change.It is to make a right change for your system,one that will bring some improvements for you to enjoy.
I agree. I think he was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt tubeguy, SY is just very straightforward with his personal experience with expensive pre-amps. I don't think he was trying to imply that your pre is unstable. He could answer specifically if your pre does happen to coincidentally be the type of pre-amp he was referring to. But I am almost certain he did not intend to insult you or imply that he knew what kind of pre you were using.
TG, you're reading stuff that wasn't there. Frankly, I don't remember what everyone's equipment is, I just asked the question and explained why I was asking. Sorry to say, there IS a lot of idiot-designed stuff out there, so one needs to inquire.
Take a deep breath and reread my answer to Brett.
Take a deep breath and reread my answer to Brett.
C'mon TG, re-read what was written, and THEN re-read the order in which it was written.
Your post listing your equipment came well after bretts initial question (I know because I responded to it) THEN SY answered Brett.
What you have done is somehow read SYs answer to brett after you posted your equipment.
You need to read in order.
you also seem to have missed my questions to you...maybe you missed that one entirely (as you do seem to be scrupulous about answering all questions) so before you blow up and get all hissy you need to know what is being discussed.
Your post listing your equipment came well after bretts initial question (I know because I responded to it) THEN SY answered Brett.
What you have done is somehow read SYs answer to brett after you posted your equipment.
You need to read in order.
you also seem to have missed my questions to you...maybe you missed that one entirely (as you do seem to be scrupulous about answering all questions) so before you blow up and get all hissy you need to know what is being discussed.
To Brett, SY & Terry J. I had someone who apparently reads this thread call me up, at my house, on Christmas day out of the blue, to ask me; "Hey are you Tubeguy1954 on diyaudio.com?" (Do you all remember that had I previously posted my phone# so people could contact me after this thread closed?) Being that I am indeed Thetubeguy1954, I answered; "Yes I am." The person then said; "Then you should read post #9953 SY's really bad-mouthing your integrated amp's preamp section! I immediately asked who am I speaking to but, the person who called me said; A friend, just read SY's post." and with that he hung up.
I don't know if any of you remember this or not but, I've reiterated on numerous occassions here at diyaudio that I'm not technically oriented. So when I read SY's comments of "...if TG has some idiot-designed preamp that's marginally stable and has 100k of source impedance, then indeed any "test" of ICs is useless- one is measuring designer incompetence, not wire." and I remembered that one of the Mastersound's specs I had provided SY via a link, was; Input impedence 100K OHM! ---{I honestly don't know if these two things i.e., source & input impedence are one and the same or not}--- I started thinking how this person took the time to call me on Christmas day to tell me about SY bad-mouthing my preamp section, what SY said about a 100k of source impedance and finally that the Mastersound's input impedence was 100K which matched the number SY spole about exactly, and it all seemed to add up.
I'm not too proud to admit that if the person who called me, did so with the sole intention of having me make a public fool out of myself by having me tear into SY for doing something he never actually did or even meant to do, and "if" a source & input impedence are one not and the same and SY wasn't bad-mouthing my amplifier, then the person who called me succeeded and "if" that's what has actually occured I want to publically apologize to all the diyaudio members for my mis-placed diatribe. However I especially want to apologise to SY, who up till now has been forthcoming in what would be done and how it would be done. Hopefully "if" this has all really been a misunderstanding and SY will accept my apology, the test can still go on this springtime.
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
I don't know if any of you remember this or not but, I've reiterated on numerous occassions here at diyaudio that I'm not technically oriented. So when I read SY's comments of "...if TG has some idiot-designed preamp that's marginally stable and has 100k of source impedance, then indeed any "test" of ICs is useless- one is measuring designer incompetence, not wire." and I remembered that one of the Mastersound's specs I had provided SY via a link, was; Input impedence 100K OHM! ---{I honestly don't know if these two things i.e., source & input impedence are one and the same or not}--- I started thinking how this person took the time to call me on Christmas day to tell me about SY bad-mouthing my preamp section, what SY said about a 100k of source impedance and finally that the Mastersound's input impedence was 100K which matched the number SY spole about exactly, and it all seemed to add up.
I'm not too proud to admit that if the person who called me, did so with the sole intention of having me make a public fool out of myself by having me tear into SY for doing something he never actually did or even meant to do, and "if" a source & input impedence are one not and the same and SY wasn't bad-mouthing my amplifier, then the person who called me succeeded and "if" that's what has actually occured I want to publically apologize to all the diyaudio members for my mis-placed diatribe. However I especially want to apologise to SY, who up till now has been forthcoming in what would be done and how it would be done. Hopefully "if" this has all really been a misunderstanding and SY will accept my apology, the test can still go on this springtime.
Thetubeguy1954
~Rational Subjectivism. It's An Acquired Taste!~
Source Z is the output Z from the previous component, eg a CDP, preamp, tuner, whatever. SY's example of 100k for source Z is hyperbolic as you'd really have to try to get that as a deliberate design goal, or through incompetence as a designer. The source Z of most SS components is a few to a few hundred ohms usually, though for tube gear it can be about a magnitude higher, but it varies so much depending upon the topology and tubes used.
The source Z, input Z of the following component and the reactances of the cables can have a measurable and audible FR difference in some cases much the same as a tube poweramp's output Z can and does change the FR of a speaker. SY's 100k example was extreme to make the point that if it were that far from the norm, then the capacitive differences alone between two different cables would make the test invalid as those differences could easily amount to greater effects than anything else.
Based upon SY's willingness to travel to perform this test and his politeness generally, I am surprised you jumped to the conclusion you did.
The source Z, input Z of the following component and the reactances of the cables can have a measurable and audible FR difference in some cases much the same as a tube poweramp's output Z can and does change the FR of a speaker. SY's 100k example was extreme to make the point that if it were that far from the norm, then the capacitive differences alone between two different cables would make the test invalid as those differences could easily amount to greater effects than anything else.
Based upon SY's willingness to travel to perform this test and his politeness generally, I am surprised you jumped to the conclusion you did.
Panicos:
Very sad, thread is almost closed, and I'm still wondering about post #9930, 9931, and 9940.
Very sad, thread is almost closed, and I'm still wondering about post #9930, 9931, and 9940.
Don't be sad🙂
Yesterday we all went to my father's house but the day was not one for cable tests.Even if the thread is closed I will PM you the result.He is good.
If what you tried was your monoblocks biwiring your speakers(not the sub)with a 16awg on the hf input and 12awg cable on the LF input,and compared the result to the same set up by changing the HF cable only with a 12awg one,I would expect a difference.Was it this that you did?
Lesson: anonymous phone calls are generally not the best source of information.
Lesson: When one questions religious beliefs, people react emotionally, not logically.
Lesson: When one questions religious beliefs, people react emotionally, not logically.
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