ESL AMT Viability Test
Congratulations, excellent work bolserst – both having carried out a fine setup & measurements and also outlined spot on explanation!
##########
May I add that my spreadsheet introduced in #86 predicted exactly the same 20dB "gain" margin (possible SPL increase for same radiating front area) if you dial in a pleat aspect ratio of 10 and also provides the same results for some of the conclusions bolserst' draws about efficiency?
http://www.kinotechnik.edis.at/pages/diyaudio/ESL/ESL.xls
*without being accused* :
Michael
Congratulations, excellent work bolserst – both having carried out a fine setup & measurements and also outlined spot on explanation!
##########
May I add that my spreadsheet introduced in #86 predicted exactly the same 20dB "gain" margin (possible SPL increase for same radiating front area) if you dial in a pleat aspect ratio of 10 and also provides the same results for some of the conclusions bolserst' draws about efficiency?
http://www.kinotechnik.edis.at/pages/diyaudio/ESL/ESL.xls
*without being accused* :
Michael
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Congratulations bolserst
Bolserst, I think you are the guy we have all been looking for. Excellent work and a particularly insightful interpretation of the results. Thanks for latching on to the Williamson/Walker and Baxandall patents and bringing them to our attention. We now understand why the Russians mentioned by Nevod were working on woofers and compound membranes. Do you have a link or patent number for the Baxandall literature?
Interestingly I started building a stator ES AMT several years ago but shelved the project when contemplating tensioning the membrane. It was about a foot high with 1/8 inch spacers and a pleat depth of 5 inches. In recent days I had been eyeing it off thinking will I or won't I dust it off and give it a try? Knowing what we now know I should have stayed with it instead of heading into tweeter territory.
Was particularly interested in the remark "Now that I know what I am looking for---" There seems almost as much need for freeing the mind from past thought patterns when trying to understand others as in coming up with original ideas yourself. So Baxandall et al can be saying some quite profound things, it's just that they are not in letters ten feet high. Thanks for your persistance, rigor and generosity bolserst.
Keith
Bolserst, I think you are the guy we have all been looking for. Excellent work and a particularly insightful interpretation of the results. Thanks for latching on to the Williamson/Walker and Baxandall patents and bringing them to our attention. We now understand why the Russians mentioned by Nevod were working on woofers and compound membranes. Do you have a link or patent number for the Baxandall literature?
Interestingly I started building a stator ES AMT several years ago but shelved the project when contemplating tensioning the membrane. It was about a foot high with 1/8 inch spacers and a pleat depth of 5 inches. In recent days I had been eyeing it off thinking will I or won't I dust it off and give it a try? Knowing what we now know I should have stayed with it instead of heading into tweeter territory.
Was particularly interested in the remark "Now that I know what I am looking for---" There seems almost as much need for freeing the mind from past thought patterns when trying to understand others as in coming up with original ideas yourself. So Baxandall et al can be saying some quite profound things, it's just that they are not in letters ten feet high. Thanks for your persistance, rigor and generosity bolserst.
Keith
OK, so we got some dB sensitivity loss if we look only at equal ESL surface area.
What happens when we look at equal frontal area with much bigger ESL surface
pleat'd behind it? Do the missing dB's come back? Have we at least gained some
benefit in displacement for a given panel size?
I still haven't figured if this same problem applies to my oddball sticky version?
What happens when we look at equal frontal area with much bigger ESL surface
pleat'd behind it? Do the missing dB's come back? Have we at least gained some
benefit in displacement for a given panel size?
I still haven't figured if this same problem applies to my oddball sticky version?
Using the same number of pleats, and the same pleat width the output will be the same no matter how deep you make the pleats. The difference will be that as you make the pleats deeper, the diaphragm deflection for the ESL pleats will be reduced as the ration of width to depth gets smaller.
So, the gain is in the ability to use smaller gaps and small stator voltages.
To get higher SPL you need to add more pleats.
bolserst
Probably, Kontra's result on the Audioportal forum about increased sensitivity meant just that - smaller drive voltage - his 7-layer ESAMT produced reasonable SPL from just 40 volts, though having not so small gap. Problem is, we don't know other properties of his experiment, aside that he used solid, non-perforated stators. May that be of significant difference?
Probably, Kontra's result on the Audioportal forum about increased sensitivity meant just that - smaller drive voltage - his 7-layer ESAMT produced reasonable SPL from just 40 volts, though having not so small gap. Problem is, we don't know other properties of his experiment, aside that he used solid, non-perforated stators. May that be of significant difference?
Hello Nevod,
It seems I missed the discussion about this Russian built solid stator AMT. Figures 8 & 9 from the Williamson/Walker patent show the construction of diagonal pleat AMT with Solid stators. Perhaps their construction was similar?
Attachments
I have been hoping for more specifics on the Russian design, myself. Nevod -- can you steer us to the details?
For those to whom it is not evident, the pleat angles shown in Williamson's Fig. 8 and the upper part of Fig. 9 are to clarify what goes where, and the lower part of Fig. 9 is supposed to represent a workable embodiment. In an ES-driven AMT, as with any ES transducer, the membrane(s) must be substantially parallel to the stator(s).
bolserst
The diagonal design was deemed to be too hard to construct, either with one long piece of film, or with separate films for each pleat.
The design which seems to be relatively easy to make is modular and parallel.
Here 's two puctures of the concept:
http://dpk.com.ua/files/u609/DSCI2555.jpg
http://dpk.com.ua/files/u609/DSCI2561_0.jpg
It must also be noted that these are pics of a "soft" version, using metallised film for stators. "Rigid" version, made by Kontra, uses metal sheet stators.
This construction is relativlely simple to make, though labor-intensive. One can build many separate modules and stack them, to easen problems with geometrical alignment of the construction:
Flat sheet of metal is (+) stator. Insulator is placed on one side along the edges, forming an U-shape. (-) - membrane is attached to insulators, thus, "front"-facing pleat is formed. An inverted-U insulator is placed over membrane, and an (-) - stator is attached to the top, thus, rear-facing pleat is formed. Next, again, U-shaped insulator, (+) membrane, inverted-U insulator, (+) stator. The module is done.
Problem is, that it's reported that this construction has advantages, and particularly in sensitivity, but there are no details..
The diagonal design was deemed to be too hard to construct, either with one long piece of film, or with separate films for each pleat.
The design which seems to be relatively easy to make is modular and parallel.
Here 's two puctures of the concept:
http://dpk.com.ua/files/u609/DSCI2555.jpg
http://dpk.com.ua/files/u609/DSCI2561_0.jpg
It must also be noted that these are pics of a "soft" version, using metallised film for stators. "Rigid" version, made by Kontra, uses metal sheet stators.
This construction is relativlely simple to make, though labor-intensive. One can build many separate modules and stack them, to easen problems with geometrical alignment of the construction:
Flat sheet of metal is (+) stator. Insulator is placed on one side along the edges, forming an U-shape. (-) - membrane is attached to insulators, thus, "front"-facing pleat is formed. An inverted-U insulator is placed over membrane, and an (-) - stator is attached to the top, thus, rear-facing pleat is formed. Next, again, U-shaped insulator, (+) membrane, inverted-U insulator, (+) stator. The module is done.
Problem is, that it's reported that this construction has advantages, and particularly in sensitivity, but there are no details..
Going full circle?
Looks like we have come back to where I/we started from. Behold a statorless AMT!. That U shaped insulator was one of the ealiest construction ideas that I had. Unless I am missing something we do not seem to be in the realm of compound membranes as a way of generating more force. If we had rigid stators we would have what I have described as a "half strength AMT". An after thought edited on. When we are talking very low frequencies we must come to a stage where the pleat air mass can be moved no matter how weak the forces are? Are we seeing this in bolserst's near field measurement for 1/4 inch spacing. As well as a resonance we seem to have a sustained output above it?
Frank Ziel, thanks for the info on the John Borthwick edited book. Someone has loaned me a copy.
Keith
Looks like we have come back to where I/we started from. Behold a statorless AMT!. That U shaped insulator was one of the ealiest construction ideas that I had. Unless I am missing something we do not seem to be in the realm of compound membranes as a way of generating more force. If we had rigid stators we would have what I have described as a "half strength AMT". An after thought edited on. When we are talking very low frequencies we must come to a stage where the pleat air mass can be moved no matter how weak the forces are? Are we seeing this in bolserst's near field measurement for 1/4 inch spacing. As well as a resonance we seem to have a sustained output above it?
Frank Ziel, thanks for the info on the John Borthwick edited book. Someone has loaned me a copy.
Keith
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Well, maybe or maybe not this doubles displacement? But I don't see how it adds any
useful force behind the frontal area. And since doubling distance between real stators
also doubles the field voltage requirement, and arcing here limits the strength of field.
I just don't see the sensitivity going up except by adding frontal area... We see now
perhaps the true paradox of frontal area when the forces are so weak???
Suppose we go back to magnetic fields, and somehow print a field coil upon each pleat?
Can this assembly be driven in "statorless" quadrature as a permanent magnetless???
useful force behind the frontal area. And since doubling distance between real stators
also doubles the field voltage requirement, and arcing here limits the strength of field.
I just don't see the sensitivity going up except by adding frontal area... We see now
perhaps the true paradox of frontal area when the forces are so weak???
Suppose we go back to magnetic fields, and somehow print a field coil upon each pleat?
Can this assembly be driven in "statorless" quadrature as a permanent magnetless???
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Experiences Russian or experiences of the embodied souls?
The beginning:
1. For the embodied soul there is no nationality, it is correct to term me Kontra or Andre. Hare Krishna!
2. Difficulties a low-frequency loudspeaker: small capacity - overcoming of difficulty - very major area of a loudspeaker. 8 sq meter for example
3. A compact size - not difficulties. Dispose a pile (one on another)
4. The loudspeaker works from 20 Hz up to 200 Hz 43 volts peacon casings from a prime transistor direct-current amplifier. Weight of a loudspeaker 80 Kg - a thick casing 1.5 mm. Has not found thin steel. Thin steel - a loudspeaker weight about 20 kilogramme. A coverage of a film - 10Gohm chemical combination of high molecular weight acid. The backlash in which is shaded slide a film - 1 mm
5. Tool measurings did not do{make}, to convince itself it is not necessary, others to convince I do not want, there is no desire.
6. The photo is not present, the patent is not present. While a secret. If the photo - a secret fails.
7. Hare Krishna!
The beginning:
1. For the embodied soul there is no nationality, it is correct to term me Kontra or Andre. Hare Krishna!
2. Difficulties a low-frequency loudspeaker: small capacity - overcoming of difficulty - very major area of a loudspeaker. 8 sq meter for example
3. A compact size - not difficulties. Dispose a pile (one on another)
4. The loudspeaker works from 20 Hz up to 200 Hz 43 volts peacon casings from a prime transistor direct-current amplifier. Weight of a loudspeaker 80 Kg - a thick casing 1.5 mm. Has not found thin steel. Thin steel - a loudspeaker weight about 20 kilogramme. A coverage of a film - 10Gohm chemical combination of high molecular weight acid. The backlash in which is shaded slide a film - 1 mm
5. Tool measurings did not do{make}, to convince itself it is not necessary, others to convince I do not want, there is no desire.
6. The photo is not present, the patent is not present. While a secret. If the photo - a secret fails.
7. Hare Krishna!
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Kontra, welcome here. I had a look at some of kontra's diyaudio posts and note that he often admits to being challenged communicating in English, and that he employs translation software. It seems that for messages directed to him he may have someone who can assist, or that English to Russian software works better than Russian to English!
Backlash seems to mean spacing, so he has 8 square metres of membrane with 1mm stator to membrane spacing. When nevod mentioned his work I made the misstake of assuming that he was using compound membranes (multiple membranes moving in the same direction)
What pleat depth are you using Kontra? The reason I ask is that you may only be getting output from a strip of membrane a few mm wide near the pleat opening. If you make the pleats wider with the same stator to membrane spacing the output may increase. Of course this is easier said than done as you would need to use perforated stators.
Keith
Backlash seems to mean spacing, so he has 8 square metres of membrane with 1mm stator to membrane spacing. When nevod mentioned his work I made the misstake of assuming that he was using compound membranes (multiple membranes moving in the same direction)
What pleat depth are you using Kontra? The reason I ask is that you may only be getting output from a strip of membrane a few mm wide near the pleat opening. If you make the pleats wider with the same stator to membrane spacing the output may increase. Of course this is easier said than done as you would need to use perforated stators.
Keith
Disembodied specifications
I know you are trying to tell us something interesting, Kontra, but have to keep your secrets before you have a patent. A diagram would make it easier to admire what you have done, though. Maybe clarification of some of the words in your translation might help. Here are my guesses.
I think that "casings" might refer to a step up transformer -- 86V p-p across a 2 mm gap is not much field. If I am right, what is the step up ratio?
I think that "dispose a pile" might mean several membranes in series. On the other hand, pleating 8 sq. m of film at 7:1 does create what some would call a compact size. Still, 14 mm (or 7 mm) span between supports won't allow much motion at 20 to 200 Hz. How deep are your pleats?
How do you know the frequency response without at least some measurements?
Are you planning to make a product?
I know you are trying to tell us something interesting, Kontra, but have to keep your secrets before you have a patent. A diagram would make it easier to admire what you have done, though. Maybe clarification of some of the words in your translation might help. Here are my guesses.
I think that "casings" might refer to a step up transformer -- 86V p-p across a 2 mm gap is not much field. If I am right, what is the step up ratio?
I think that "dispose a pile" might mean several membranes in series. On the other hand, pleating 8 sq. m of film at 7:1 does create what some would call a compact size. Still, 14 mm (or 7 mm) span between supports won't allow much motion at 20 to 200 Hz. How deep are your pleats?
How do you know the frequency response without at least some measurements?
Are you planning to make a product?
Yes, I read easily and my grammar limps (poor) I write clumsy, badly.
Sometimes because of ignorance of linguistic singularities it is received{obtained} roughly, not as it is accepted. But I try.
Spasing my ESL loudspeaker - 1 mm from a stator to film without supports
The area loose to shift film - such *2. cells is a lot of 110*95 mm.
Depth of a tuck - 95 mm
Breadth of 110 mm
My speaker reminds speaker Heil but it{he} differs.
Patent Heil another. Stator it is not perforated{punched}. The sound of a cell will emanate from a crack.
Whether it will be better for understanding translate on German and French? In step.
Is ready to yield the texts on pre-award{provisional;preliminary} correction for understanding.
43 volts are measured by the sagittary voltmeter. Peak to peak = 43 volt
The breadth of 4 cells, height - is a lot of. N
ESL such area - can have major capacitans (?)
How do i know the frequency response without at least some measurements? - All body it is audible a sound. Ears. Ribs{edges} crinkles
There is no commerce. Has pleased the brain. Has tested. It was convinced - works. Any more I do not want.
Hare Krishna
Sometimes because of ignorance of linguistic singularities it is received{obtained} roughly, not as it is accepted. But I try.
Spasing my ESL loudspeaker - 1 mm from a stator to film without supports
The area loose to shift film - such *2. cells is a lot of 110*95 mm.
Depth of a tuck - 95 mm
Breadth of 110 mm
My speaker reminds speaker Heil but it{he} differs.
Patent Heil another. Stator it is not perforated{punched}. The sound of a cell will emanate from a crack.
Whether it will be better for understanding translate on German and French? In step.
Is ready to yield the texts on pre-award{provisional;preliminary} correction for understanding.
43 volts are measured by the sagittary voltmeter. Peak to peak = 43 volt
The breadth of 4 cells, height - is a lot of. N
ESL such area - can have major capacitans (?)
How do i know the frequency response without at least some measurements? - All body it is audible a sound. Ears. Ribs{edges} crinkles
There is no commerce. Has pleased the brain. Has tested. It was convinced - works. Any more I do not want.
Hare Krishna
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Ultra!
Yess! Cool! und Test:
Nach deutsch sage ich nicht
Mein Computerübersetzer übersetzt{überweist} deutsch nicht besser und zusätzlich zur englischen Sprache.
Aus zwei Texten ist es leicht, richtig{korrekt} aufzustellen
Aber es ist schwer, in die Übersetzung der Regel des Lebens, die Höflichkeit, der Tradition der Sprache anzulegen. Dieses am meisten schwer. Ich bemerkte oftmals nach meinen Texten es brach die langdauernde Pause an, die höflichen Kollegen machten die Pause, die Ungeschicklichkeit zu entfernen{aufzuräumen}.
Ich werde mich bemühen, den Freund hier damit für mich zu finden hat geholfen
Yess! Cool! und Test:
Nach deutsch sage ich nicht
Mein Computerübersetzer übersetzt{überweist} deutsch nicht besser und zusätzlich zur englischen Sprache.
Aus zwei Texten ist es leicht, richtig{korrekt} aufzustellen
Aber es ist schwer, in die Übersetzung der Regel des Lebens, die Höflichkeit, der Tradition der Sprache anzulegen. Dieses am meisten schwer. Ich bemerkte oftmals nach meinen Texten es brach die langdauernde Pause an, die höflichen Kollegen machten die Pause, die Ungeschicklichkeit zu entfernen{aufzuräumen}.
Ich werde mich bemühen, den Freund hier damit für mich zu finden hat geholfen
TRANSLATION (INTERPRETATION
)Yes! Cool and test:
Its not me who is translating into German
My PC translates but not any better than into English
Starting with two texts, its easier to put them together correctly.
Though, it's difficult to do right in translating (the rules of life???), politeness (and tradition???). This is the biggest hurdle.
I noticed big delays after posting and I assume some courteously guys needed that time to correct for my mistakes(???).
I try to find out the friend that helped me.
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Hallo Kontra, ich schlage vor du wiederholst dein Posting #196 in Deutsch und ich übersetze dann.
Dieses Posting #196 ist bisher die beste Zusammfassung aller technischen Daten deines Designs. Daran sind hier alle sehr interessiert.
Hello Kontra, I suggest you repeat your posting #196 in German and I try to translate.
This posting #196 is your best summary of the technical specifications of your design until now. People around here are interested the most in this.
Michael
Dieses Posting #196 ist bisher die beste Zusammfassung aller technischen Daten deines Designs. Daran sind hier alle sehr interessiert.
Hello Kontra, I suggest you repeat your posting #196 in German and I try to translate.
This posting #196 is your best summary of the technical specifications of your design until now. People around here are interested the most in this.
Michael
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