Hello jzagaja,
From what I have read on this forum, I was under the impression that the exit angle for the B&C DE250 was 6.5°, and not 14.6°. Did you get these numbers from the manufacturer?
Hi Rudolf,
sounds like the horns or the whole loudspeakers were connected out of phase.
Best, Markus
Yeah, this was my first thought too .
In the meantime I found out that the bass may have been a 18" Faital actively crossed at 500 Hz.
Roehren-und-Hoeren :: Thema anzeigen - Gelsenkirchen im Herbst - Hifi-Music-World 2009
The author also reports that auditioning was a mixed bag - "mediocre" with one track ( Alicia-Keys ) and pretty at another one ( Nils Lofgren ).
From another forum tipped up heights (and bass) but also authority in a good sense was confirmed.
He too had the impression that the sound sometimes wasn't exactly free from artefact's (sizzling highs?).
Seemingly they announced the min phase horn as a Kugelwellenhorn / tractrix horn
Michael
In the meantime I found out that the bass may have been a 18" Faital actively crossed at 500 Hz.
Roehren-und-Hoeren :: Thema anzeigen - Gelsenkirchen im Herbst - Hifi-Music-World 2009
The author also reports that auditioning was a mixed bag - "mediocre" with one track ( Alicia-Keys ) and pretty at another one ( Nils Lofgren ).
From another forum tipped up heights (and bass) but also authority in a good sense was confirmed.
He too had the impression that the sound sometimes wasn't exactly free from artefact's (sizzling highs?).
Seemingly they announced the min phase horn as a Kugelwellenhorn / tractrix horn
Michael
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Markus & Michael,
would you mind to read kboe's comment of the WG on the German HiFi-Forum? Scroll down to Strassacker.
'kboe' obviously did listen longer to the speakers than I could and his explanation could very well be right. Maybe you could translate that comment for this forum too?
Seems Kboe also had troubles with image localization for the area between the speakers.
I doubt the room was big - they probably would have given the speaker more space towards the front wall, which most certainly would have relaxed (ported) bass presentation.
The possible reflection from the side wall can be seen on one of the pix - there seems to be a glass front right behind the curtain.
Well, a lot of funny reading the tea leaves...
As there were positive comments too - especially for voices presented with ease, I have faith there is considerable "room for improvement" - to be fair, they really didn't have much time to put that whole thing together
Michael
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kboe wrote:
Strassacker:
Haben heuer nur 2 Lautsprecher vorgeführt. Offenbar ein Viech mit Zusatzhochtöner, welches ich nicht gehört habe. Und einen 2Weger mit riesigem Mittel-hochtonhorn und einem 15 Zöller drunter ( oder wars gar ein 18er?)
Ich hab auch sofort die Assoziation mit einem überdimensionierten Waschbecken gehabt. Zum Klang:
Für mich am auffallendsten war die fehlende Mittenordnung. Ich war 2 mal drinnen mit wechselnden Hörplätzen. Eine wirklich präzise Ortung einer Schallquelle war mir nicht möglich. Mir ist aber auch aufgefallen, daß ich die Kommentare des Vorführenden 3 mal hören konnte. Einmal ihn selber, dann die erste Reflexion von der Rückwand und danach die Reflexion von der Seitenwand. Hier wird wahrscheinlich die beste Box ein Problem mit der Abbildung bekommen.
Eine ordentliche Vorbehandlung des Hörraumes wäre einer Firma wie Strassacker ganz sicher gut zu Gesicht gestanden
Strassacker
This year they presented two speakers only. Obviousely a "Viech" with added tweeter – which I haven't heard. And a two way speaker with a huge mid- high horn on top of a 15" (maybe its even been a 18"?)
Immediately I associated with a giant wash-bowl.
As for the sound:
What sticks out the most for me was absent mid-stage localisation. I've been there two times at different listening positions. I wasn't able to get any precise source localisation. I noticed that the presenter could be heard 3 times . First him, than reflected from the back wall and after that reflected from the side wall. Under those conditions possibly the best box would get into troubles regarding imaging.
A proper preparation of the listening room certainly would have suited for a company like Stassacker.
###
Well – more or less....
Michael
Strassacker:
Haben heuer nur 2 Lautsprecher vorgeführt. Offenbar ein Viech mit Zusatzhochtöner, welches ich nicht gehört habe. Und einen 2Weger mit riesigem Mittel-hochtonhorn und einem 15 Zöller drunter ( oder wars gar ein 18er?)
Ich hab auch sofort die Assoziation mit einem überdimensionierten Waschbecken gehabt. Zum Klang:
Für mich am auffallendsten war die fehlende Mittenordnung. Ich war 2 mal drinnen mit wechselnden Hörplätzen. Eine wirklich präzise Ortung einer Schallquelle war mir nicht möglich. Mir ist aber auch aufgefallen, daß ich die Kommentare des Vorführenden 3 mal hören konnte. Einmal ihn selber, dann die erste Reflexion von der Rückwand und danach die Reflexion von der Seitenwand. Hier wird wahrscheinlich die beste Box ein Problem mit der Abbildung bekommen.
Eine ordentliche Vorbehandlung des Hörraumes wäre einer Firma wie Strassacker ganz sicher gut zu Gesicht gestanden
Strassacker
This year they presented two speakers only. Obviousely a "Viech" with added tweeter – which I haven't heard. And a two way speaker with a huge mid- high horn on top of a 15" (maybe its even been a 18"?)
Immediately I associated with a giant wash-bowl.
As for the sound:
What sticks out the most for me was absent mid-stage localisation. I've been there two times at different listening positions. I wasn't able to get any precise source localisation. I noticed that the presenter could be heard 3 times . First him, than reflected from the back wall and after that reflected from the side wall. Under those conditions possibly the best box would get into troubles regarding imaging.
A proper preparation of the listening room certainly would have suited for a company like Stassacker.
###
Well – more or less....
Michael
kboe wrote:
Strassacker:
Haben heuer nur 2 Lautsprecher vorgeführt. Offenbar ein Viech mit Zusatzhochtöner, welches ich nicht gehört habe. Und einen 2Weger mit riesigem Mittel-hochtonhorn und einem 15 Zöller drunter ( oder wars gar ein 18er?)
Ich hab auch sofort die Assoziation mit einem überdimensionierten Waschbecken gehabt. Zum Klang:
Für mich am auffallendsten war die fehlende Mittenordnung. Ich war 2 mal drinnen mit wechselnden Hörplätzen. Eine wirklich präzise Ortung einer Schallquelle war mir nicht möglich. Mir ist aber auch aufgefallen, daß ich die Kommentare des Vorführenden 3 mal hören konnte. Einmal ihn selber, dann die erste Reflexion von der Rückwand und danach die Reflexion von der Seitenwand. Hier wird wahrscheinlich die beste Box ein Problem mit der Abbildung bekommen.
Eine ordentliche Vorbehandlung des Hörraumes wäre einer Firma wie Strassacker ganz sicher gut zu Gesicht gestanden
Strassacker
This year they presented two speakers only. Obviousely a "Viech" with added tweeter – which I haven't heard. And a two way speaker with a huge mid- high horn on top of a 15" (maybe its even been a 18"?)
Immediately I associated with a giant wash-bowl. As for the sound:
What sticks out the most for me was absence of mid-stage localisation. I've been there two times at different listening positions. To get any precise source localisation wasn't possible for me. I noticed that the presenter could be heard 3 times . First him, than reflected from the back wall and after that reflected from the side wall. Under those conditions possibly the best box would get into troubles regarding imaging.
A proper preparation of the listening room certainly would well have suited for a company like Stassacker.
###
– more or less....
Michael
Strassacker:
Haben heuer nur 2 Lautsprecher vorgeführt. Offenbar ein Viech mit Zusatzhochtöner, welches ich nicht gehört habe. Und einen 2Weger mit riesigem Mittel-hochtonhorn und einem 15 Zöller drunter ( oder wars gar ein 18er?)
Ich hab auch sofort die Assoziation mit einem überdimensionierten Waschbecken gehabt. Zum Klang:
Für mich am auffallendsten war die fehlende Mittenordnung. Ich war 2 mal drinnen mit wechselnden Hörplätzen. Eine wirklich präzise Ortung einer Schallquelle war mir nicht möglich. Mir ist aber auch aufgefallen, daß ich die Kommentare des Vorführenden 3 mal hören konnte. Einmal ihn selber, dann die erste Reflexion von der Rückwand und danach die Reflexion von der Seitenwand. Hier wird wahrscheinlich die beste Box ein Problem mit der Abbildung bekommen.
Eine ordentliche Vorbehandlung des Hörraumes wäre einer Firma wie Strassacker ganz sicher gut zu Gesicht gestanden
Strassacker
This year they presented two speakers only. Obviousely a "Viech" with added tweeter – which I haven't heard. And a two way speaker with a huge mid- high horn on top of a 15" (maybe its even been a 18"?)
Immediately I associated with a giant wash-bowl. As for the sound:
What sticks out the most for me was absence of mid-stage localisation. I've been there two times at different listening positions. To get any precise source localisation wasn't possible for me. I noticed that the presenter could be heard 3 times . First him, than reflected from the back wall and after that reflected from the side wall. Under those conditions possibly the best box would get into troubles regarding imaging.
A proper preparation of the listening room certainly would well have suited for a company like Stassacker.
###
– more or less....
Michael
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Room was at least 6 m wide and 8 m deep. I did not hear the presenter adressing the auditorium, so don't know about any mike.
The front wall distance during presentation was as in the picture -obviously too (?) short. As you can see there was virtually no damping in the room - except from the listeners
.Moderators:
Could you separate all posts regarding this horn/waveguide into a new thread?
Earl:
My apologies for cluttering your thread with off-topic things.
Rudolf
Good idea , and thanks for you patience Earl in hosting the OT postings!
May I ask for the title of the new thread to be :
„Min Phase Horn with Faital Drivers at German DIY Show in Gelsenkirchen“
Michael
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Moderators:
Could you separate all posts regarding this horn/waveguide into a new thread?
Earl:
My apologies for cluttering your thread with off-topic things.
Rudolf
Rudolp, I quite agree. I'm not going to argue with people here, but a lot of what is being said is bunk and I'd prefer that it be said elsewhere. If it continues in this thread then I am going to be forced to "call" some people on their erronious claims and that WILL start another flame war.
I'm just trying to find out what the problem of this speaker (setup) was/is. Usually any similar pair of direct radiating speakers will be able to produce a phantom center. So obviously something's wrong.
I agree on splitting the thread although I'd like to hear Earl's opinion because this device looks pretty CD to me.
Best, Markus
The profile has a fairly sharp discontinuity to it so I would expect decent CD up to the point at which this sharp transition is 1/2 wavelength. At that point it will likely go "all to heii". CD is not difficult, its been done for years, that point seems to be missing here. Its Narrow CD without diffraction that is difficult. I would expect more diffraction from that device than one of mine that much is certain. The device looks like an axi-symmetric diffraction horn, with a larger radius at the diffraction point than is usually done. To repeat, getting CD with the lowest amount of diffraction is the goal - OS does that, period.