Based on my limited experience I would have to agree with Brett.
I have diy Onkens I built a few years ago using Iconic 165-8G woofers, and vintage JBL pro horns for the mids and highs.
HE pro drivers in general are not working very hard in domestic environments and probably do not suffer much from compression due to voice coil heating or non-linear suspension effects at large excursions. I think that is a big part of their advantage.
Long ago after several used pairs I scraped up enough coin to purchase a brand new pair of Magnepan 1.6QR (quasi-ribbons) which I thought sounded glorious. I was very sad when economic circumstances forced their abrupt sale (failure of business and a dire need to pay the rent on my apartment).
A loaner pair of JBL Rhodes C-37 with D130 woofers and O75 tweeters arrived shortly thereafter to tide me over. (Stunningly efficient - a couple of watts will make lease breaking spl levels.) Hooking them up the first time after cleaning them up was something of a surprise, and I have been hooked ever since. The speakers that ultimately replaced them were the result of living for 6yrs with those "loaners" - the Onkens I designed and built a few years ago would not have happened without my unexpected exposure to those HE speakers.
often it is not as linear as it seems. just look at impedance curve, if it is rising substantially and driver still has flat FR, then cone breakup is just equalized by woofer's high inductance.
Well one of the best systems I've heard in the US uses the Eminence Beta 8 as the mid. Very clean, very clear, no fuss, no tears. And even the Alpha 6 can be cleaned up to sound rather nice. =) And I've heard the Beta 12 LTA sound amazing when done right. Almost as light, sweet and airy as an electrostatic. You'd never think by looking at it!
One the other side of the aisle, the Morel mid dome is amazingly good if done right. It is done right in the Gershman Sonogram. Vocals to die for. Great brass, too.
Wow, your ignorance is telling. I have set up a system capable of doing great music and handling the dynamic range of movies, which is typically higher than many modern recordings.
Bluray has HD audio.
PHL
Yes. HT requires a larger dynamic range and bandwidth.
Who is using cheap drivers? Cheap is cheap. Well engineered JBL, B&C, Beyma, Radian, BMS et al are excellent drivers with high sensitivity and generally low THD and reasonable breakup.
No one I know using pro drivers would use an Eminence Alpha. Use the cheapest driver to make an incorrect point.
Can be a bit exxy, but not always. Rare? Not really.
You need to do some more research. JBL SFG, AE Lambda motors, 18Sound AIC as well as many others which have shorting rings etc to lower inductance.
I've said it is possible didn't I? It will only cost so much more than a comparable stereo system optimised for music.
And sometimes SQ get compromised to achieve that.
Assuming the 2ch part only, no. There are plenty of 'audiophile' drivers that cost more than mine.
Nowhere did I mention cost as the arbiter in performance.
Maybe, but it does not need to be. Dynamic compression is also a distortion.
PS: the PHL based system of my friend mentioned earlier, is music only.
My 2 pence...
Ive had experience of building both 'hifi' and 'PA' set yps
both have totally different requirements:
Hifi:
desirable phase and frequency required, at moderate volumes, in compact(ish) form, and at reasonable power. Smoothness of response and good linearity. appearance.
PA:
sufficient FR(not too much LF as to accentuate HUM and exacerbate feedback thru microphone), HIGH power handling, HIGH output SPLS, and high heat dissipation thru larger dia VC's(with correspondingly higher L), smooth response second to peak SPL...corrugated surrounds for control at high excursion rather than linear excursion, although higher linear excursion possible due to VC's and motor topology. indestructible nature of kapton formers and higher gauge VC. however cones typically made from lighter(good), short fibre, hard paper(bad) which inherently has a much more resonant nature than 'hifi' paper cones. many PA speaker DESIGNED to have a 'presence' peak to counteract the midrange absorption which an auditorium full of people has. particularly obvious are guitar and other 'gereral' PA drivers. plus i doubt many ppl would actually stress a PA speaker anywhere near its limits in home use.
for example, my 4x10" bass cab i have at home....3 cu.ft volume, Al drivers, about 55Hz Fb, over 95 dB per watt...very loud but my SSB4 hifi spekers with a 5" driver have a flatter and better bass response for bass repoduction albeit at sub 95dBs. i actually had a 12x8" bass cab using some no name 8"drivers Fs 30Hz and about 91dB/watt that sounds better than 4x10 and similar output, though it requires more power. This was my 'studio' cab for this reason
In short PA for 110+dBs.....either you hate your neighbours or are deaf, or need to stage a public party....AND hifi speakers(albeit good ones) for home use at sub 110dBs
SIMPLE
Ive had experience of building both 'hifi' and 'PA' set yps
both have totally different requirements:
Hifi:
desirable phase and frequency required, at moderate volumes, in compact(ish) form, and at reasonable power. Smoothness of response and good linearity. appearance.
PA:
sufficient FR(not too much LF as to accentuate HUM and exacerbate feedback thru microphone), HIGH power handling, HIGH output SPLS, and high heat dissipation thru larger dia VC's(with correspondingly higher L), smooth response second to peak SPL...corrugated surrounds for control at high excursion rather than linear excursion, although higher linear excursion possible due to VC's and motor topology. indestructible nature of kapton formers and higher gauge VC. however cones typically made from lighter(good), short fibre, hard paper(bad) which inherently has a much more resonant nature than 'hifi' paper cones. many PA speaker DESIGNED to have a 'presence' peak to counteract the midrange absorption which an auditorium full of people has. particularly obvious are guitar and other 'gereral' PA drivers. plus i doubt many ppl would actually stress a PA speaker anywhere near its limits in home use.
for example, my 4x10" bass cab i have at home....3 cu.ft volume, Al drivers, about 55Hz Fb, over 95 dB per watt...very loud but my SSB4 hifi spekers with a 5" driver have a flatter and better bass response for bass repoduction albeit at sub 95dBs. i actually had a 12x8" bass cab using some no name 8"drivers Fs 30Hz and about 91dB/watt that sounds better than 4x10 and similar output, though it requires more power. This was my 'studio' cab for this reason
In short PA for 110+dBs.....either you hate your neighbours or are deaf, or need to stage a public party....AND hifi speakers(albeit good ones) for home use at sub 110dBs
SIMPLE
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So you can buy five or more speakers plus amplifiers etc. for the price of a good two channel system and still compete with SQ, not bad.
Sure but we must compare apples with apples.
I don't find dynamic compression to be a problem if you use good quality hi-fi drivers for normal hi-fi use anyhow, if you try to recreate a live rock show in your house, by all means go for pro drivers.
It seems like nice drivers, at least it sound like they care for good SQ.
Your friend must be glad that BluRay are here. Poor SQ on DVD's made me lose interest in HT and concentrate on stereo, perhaps I will try again, but then also it seems like many recording companies can't even do stereo right, what are the chances to get a good 5.1 or 7.1 recording.
Are you talking about the resultant acceleration of the diaphragm? If so, I'm not sure that's quite correct. If both are pure sine-wave tones, the 10 kHz tone will attempt to modulate the driver through 10 thousand cycles a second, vs. 50 per second with the 50 Hz tone. The rates of acceleration a deceleration would be much higher for the 10 kHz tone. That is one reason tweeter elements are usually much smaller than woofers - their lighter moving mass can do a much better job at keeping up with the acceleration and deceleration rates required by high frequency content.
JF
Ouch, that was like hearing a piano through a pro mid-range! j/k 😛 But I don't think you can say pro-drivers are just 'better'. They have been designed to meet a different set of criteria. That 'pro' and 'hi-fi' drivers coexist in the market today is a fact that approaches proof of there being a separate need for each. It's about design trade-offs, and target applications. It's interesting to see people try to take advantage of the industrial nature of pro-sound drivers in a home audio environment. A neat idea for sure, and something I'm interested in learning more of. But I think in the end it is about choosing a driver that fits your application.
I know this has been covered elsewhere, but never really very definitively. Why is half roll foam or rubber the rule for 94 percent of hi-fi large and mid driver construction, and pleated fabric even more dominiant than that in large and mid pro drivers.
Part of that, it would seem, is manufacturer's desicion (esp in "hi-fi" to satisfy the expectations of the buyer? Most hi-fi purchasers might cast suspicion on a driver with a pleated surround? Rubber and foam are not 'rugged' enough for pro use? Is half roll mechanically better suited to high excursions?
How come (god i'm gonna get a lot of **** for this i know) it's such a rare bird that drops into these forums now and then who can claim, for instance, that "I've been designing components for JBL (eminence, seas, peerless, scanspeak, pioneer, b&c, beyma, vifa, et al) most of my life and this is what I can tell you..." ? There must be a many thousands of so qualified dotting the landscape and they rarely seem compelled to share the wealth. Professional disinterest? (that's the mock diagnosis for a psychiatrist who shows no interest at all in what's happening in his own home, the cop whose kids are the terror of the neighborhood, or the nasa engineer who cannot change a washer in the kitchen sink. None of this for lack of skill. Just a punch-in and punch-out sort of approach to occupation).
I've tried, a couple of times now, to bring technical questions, things just beyond the grasp of an amateur, to a board such as eng tips.com with poor (hostile?) results. They bill themselve as "INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS" and they mean it, damnit. The moment they suspect your lowly unletteredness they waste no time drumming you out. This despite (as is typical of those forums) that the category you've posted in has been active about six times in the last month. Not exactly overwhelmed with trolls I'd say, but militantly protective of their kingdom for some damn reason nonetheless.
Anyway. Go ahead and start shouting. It can't do much harm. Three quarters of this thread has already been consumed with those quote by quote refutations of the other guy's points. ******* contests that are generally far more personally defesive in tone that illustrative of the topic at hand. And everywhere I look on diyaudio I see more of it these days.
Part of that, it would seem, is manufacturer's desicion (esp in "hi-fi" to satisfy the expectations of the buyer? Most hi-fi purchasers might cast suspicion on a driver with a pleated surround? Rubber and foam are not 'rugged' enough for pro use? Is half roll mechanically better suited to high excursions?
How come (god i'm gonna get a lot of **** for this i know) it's such a rare bird that drops into these forums now and then who can claim, for instance, that "I've been designing components for JBL (eminence, seas, peerless, scanspeak, pioneer, b&c, beyma, vifa, et al) most of my life and this is what I can tell you..." ? There must be a many thousands of so qualified dotting the landscape and they rarely seem compelled to share the wealth. Professional disinterest? (that's the mock diagnosis for a psychiatrist who shows no interest at all in what's happening in his own home, the cop whose kids are the terror of the neighborhood, or the nasa engineer who cannot change a washer in the kitchen sink. None of this for lack of skill. Just a punch-in and punch-out sort of approach to occupation).
I've tried, a couple of times now, to bring technical questions, things just beyond the grasp of an amateur, to a board such as eng tips.com with poor (hostile?) results. They bill themselve as "INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS" and they mean it, damnit. The moment they suspect your lowly unletteredness they waste no time drumming you out. This despite (as is typical of those forums) that the category you've posted in has been active about six times in the last month. Not exactly overwhelmed with trolls I'd say, but militantly protective of their kingdom for some damn reason nonetheless.
Anyway. Go ahead and start shouting. It can't do much harm. Three quarters of this thread has already been consumed with those quote by quote refutations of the other guy's points. ******* contests that are generally far more personally defesive in tone that illustrative of the topic at hand. And everywhere I look on diyaudio I see more of it these days.
Hello svejkovat
Here have a read it might shed some light, at least from a JBL point of view, why they use specific surround types. I found it to be interesting and informative.
TECH NOTE 1-3A
Rob🙂
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Dont people need to specify pro PA drivers vs pro studio drivers? Different applications.
One example is PA drivers (especially in large venues) need more directionality so they can "put" the sound where they need it, not all in the first 20 rows.
A lot of the dynamic power in HT is in the LFE (sub) channel, thats why its set 10db hotter than the mains. This takes the heat off the other woofs. You also have 5 speakers instead of 2, gives you 10db more headroom. So going from stereo music to 5.1 can increase your SPL 12 to 20db while your Left Right speakers are putting out exactly the same level.
One example is PA drivers (especially in large venues) need more directionality so they can "put" the sound where they need it, not all in the first 20 rows.
A lot of the dynamic power in HT is in the LFE (sub) channel, thats why its set 10db hotter than the mains. This takes the heat off the other woofs. You also have 5 speakers instead of 2, gives you 10db more headroom. So going from stereo music to 5.1 can increase your SPL 12 to 20db while your Left Right speakers are putting out exactly the same level.
Depends, some are interchangable and can be used in both applications. It's really a driver specific issue. As with anything there are no hard and fast rules.
Rob🙂
There is a very good reason why that is. I've asked this same question to some very big names and always get the same answer - It's not worth the agravation. It's because of the way that they are treated. Seldom, if ever, are they shown respect, and most of the time they get attacked by the guy who "thinks" he is as smart as the experts and wants to prove himself or has a bone to pick. There are often "local experts" who don't like being shown up and are happy to get rid of any real competition. It can only take one loose cannon to drive someone away - its not hard at all. And surprisingly, people usually just look on and let it happen.
That and there are a lot fewer of these people than you might expect and the ones that I know who do post don't do it at DIY.
Amen to that, brother!
The Alpha 6" was for car use. Gary set out to find if he could improve it. In an afternoon's work, he did. He has also done some nice work in the Beta 8 that he has not published. I have not heard the treated 8s.
I like a lot of pro drivers because they sound big. Most of them are big.
But the pro drivers I like the best also had an illustrious career as Hi-Fi drivers. Good old Altec. "Altec" is an old Indian word for "have your cake and eat it too." =)
On the Hi-Fi side, Peerless & ScanSpeak are among my favs. Great drivers.
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