I still believe one should specify between pro sound reinforcement and pro studio speakers, ever see Genelecs at a concert or horns with a 60 degree dispersion in a studio? Check out Meyer Sounds products
Meyer Sound Sales
One big advantage (pun intended) is size, Ive never seen home speakers with 2 18" woofers per side (although they probably exsist), I have seen them in a studio control room.
Meyer Sound Sales
One big advantage (pun intended) is size, Ive never seen home speakers with 2 18" woofers per side (although they probably exsist), I have seen them in a studio control room.
I have total 4 18" woofers in my living room😀 (One per side plus 2 at the center).
In the "heyday", I got 6 in total, 2 per L-C-R or 3 per side😀 Now I'm getting conservative...
As to the 'studio' vs 'sound reinforcement' things, I believe they are different in system design, but at the 'component' level, I think many things (if not all) should be the same.
ps. I live in relatively small apartment and don't listen very loud, but still prefer pro-stuff😀
In the "heyday", I got 6 in total, 2 per L-C-R or 3 per side😀 Now I'm getting conservative...
As to the 'studio' vs 'sound reinforcement' things, I believe they are different in system design, but at the 'component' level, I think many things (if not all) should be the same.
ps. I live in relatively small apartment and don't listen very loud, but still prefer pro-stuff😀
I still believe that higher end manufactures use different drivers in these 2 very different applications. Live sound needs extreme efficiency, ruggedness (electrically, pyhsically, and enviromentally), and directionality (ever see dome tweters at concerts?), studios want very low distortion, and flat extended freq resp. (sure they want spl, but thats not so hard to do these days in small rooms with large drivers). Go look at Meyer Sounds different products for these applications, they use different drivers.
And I dont work for Meyer but I have worked with the HD-1s for many years. They seem to be an inovative research based (using science and measurements) design and manufacturing company.
And I dont work for Meyer but I have worked with the HD-1s for many years. They seem to be an inovative research based (using science and measurements) design and manufacturing company.
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In my very limited experience designing my Onken/Ultraflex based system (see old Onken threads for details) I currently use I would have to say I would have to agree with Gedlees comments and observations as they seem to parallel mine. I' m using a mix of vintage and current pro sound drivers in my system, and the effortless quality of reproduction is something I never heard in any of the several commercial speaker systems I've owned or had on a long term loan. (AR58LS, MG1.4, MG1.6QR, Silverline Sonatinas, etc..)
In a former job I got to be well acquainted with the effects of dynamic compression due to voice coil heating and got to measure it. It could easily kill 3dB or more of dynamic range when the VC got hot.
Pro drivers can be very linear at the limited excursions and power levels encountered in home use. The combination of Iconic and JBL drivers in my system offers relatively decent FR flatness +/-2dB 100Hz - 10kHz and within -3dB limits from 35Hz - 16kHz (excluding a few peaks and dips below 100Hz) considering the lack of room treatment, no traps or EQ of any kind and my unsophisticated X-O design - not a bad result. As far as the sound goes, I got really lucky - this was my first speaker project and an extremely ambitious one.
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As a further comment, the systems of friends I most like are all cinema/large format horn (some reflex on the bottom end) based systems. You haven't heard "big" sound until you've heard a pair of RCA Ubangis in the right room.. 😀
In a former job I got to be well acquainted with the effects of dynamic compression due to voice coil heating and got to measure it. It could easily kill 3dB or more of dynamic range when the VC got hot.
Pro drivers can be very linear at the limited excursions and power levels encountered in home use. The combination of Iconic and JBL drivers in my system offers relatively decent FR flatness +/-2dB 100Hz - 10kHz and within -3dB limits from 35Hz - 16kHz (excluding a few peaks and dips below 100Hz) considering the lack of room treatment, no traps or EQ of any kind and my unsophisticated X-O design - not a bad result. As far as the sound goes, I got really lucky - this was my first speaker project and an extremely ambitious one.
Edit:
As a further comment, the systems of friends I most like are all cinema/large format horn (some reflex on the bottom end) based systems. You haven't heard "big" sound until you've heard a pair of RCA Ubangis in the right room.. 😀
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Yes! Effortless is exactly the right word for describing the performance of pro-stuff in home use 😀 This is the key point I love them.
This is what I've said:
As soon as you talk about amplified instruments and amplified live shows, I guess almost anything will do because you don't have a reference to compare it with. I guess detailed sound is a very low priority in large amplified live shows anyway.
Exactly, I can't see that it is possible to build one speaker that can do everything perfect, first one have to decide what is most important to you and then build speakers that are optimised for that use.
Remind us exactly how much experience you have with designing with and measuring pro drivers for use in domestic systems. Drivers and application used would be a good start.
Rather than waste time waiting for that tidbit. Why don't you just link us to the "perfect" speaker, or what may be better described as the speaker using pro drivers that in your opinion does everything perfectly, and thereby contradicts Andre's opinion. Which in turn warrants an explaination of his hands on experiences.
I for one would love to know what you have in mind.
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Perhaps you should learn how to read. I have never asserted a perfect design. The assertion from Andre is that HE drivers are only suitable for high SPL. I want to see where his experience is ACTUALLY with HE drivers. Not premade PA systems, but actually working the designs with the drivers.
I am also willing to hear your experiences and see your measurements of pro drivers and indicate exactly why they are unsuitable for domestic reproduction.
According to my own experiences, I think it doesn't need any sophisticated measure instrument or design skills to reveal the superiority of pro-drivers.
Just hook them up and play! Just drivers, aren't they? Why prejudice? Is it because they are bigger and uglier? They won't bite, don't worry!
Facing those so-called 'Hi-Fi' / 'Hi-end' drivers, pro-drivers just win, hands down, no contest. I don't know why I'm wasting time typing here....
Just hook them up and play! Just drivers, aren't they? Why prejudice? Is it because they are bigger and uglier? They won't bite, don't worry!
Facing those so-called 'Hi-Fi' / 'Hi-end' drivers, pro-drivers just win, hands down, no contest. I don't know why I'm wasting time typing here....
Perhaps you should learn to read my friend. I have never asserted that pro drivers are unsuitable for domestic design. In fact, I'm liking the idea for a possible project.
If you can recall from the last quote you've taken from Andre. All he stated was his doubt that any speaker could play everything perfectly, and best advice when deciding what to use is simply determining what the desired outcome is, and make driver choices focused toward that goal. I happen to agree with that train of thought. You apparently don't, as you quoted that opinion and asked for something to substantiate his reasoning. I thought that meant you had something particular in mind to contradict him. I guess now it's obvious you were just trying to discount his opinion without merit.
I don't agree with that thought either. Nothing is or ever will be perfect and pursuing perfection is a waste of time. But there is a huge range of sonic quality available from good to bad and "perfection" doesn't enter into the ranking what-so-ever. I don't believe that one should "optimize" a loudspeaker for any particular characteristic or source material - accuracy is accuracy. One should "optimize" the system for the room and likewise the room for the loudspeaker, both of which are independent of the source material.
As to the loudspeaker that uses "pro" drivers and is considered to be "Hi-Fi" I would simply point to the reviews of my own. These are Pro drivers, the exact same drivers as used in large venue line arrays etc.
From my point of view PA speakers are not suitable for high fidelity music re-production.
The reason is simple: they are just not good enough in time domain. They simply cannot match a well made HiFi speaker from this point of view. High efficiency commands a price.
I don't care about SPL because this is not the only parameter that describes the real perceived dynamics.
Cheers,
45
The reason is simple: they are just not good enough in time domain. They simply cannot match a well made HiFi speaker from this point of view. High efficiency commands a price.
I don't care about SPL because this is not the only parameter that describes the real perceived dynamics.
Cheers,
45
As soon as I hear pro drivers that sound better than my hi-fi drivers on my system, playing the music I like, I promise you I will use them. 😉
I have a few friends with good experience in speaker design, some mostly in pro audio, so I've listened to enough speakers to realise that there are no single perfect speaker, you have to optimise speakers for it's intended use if you want optimum performance.
To make outright claims that pro drivers are better than hi-fi drivers for hi-fi listening conditions just seems a bit far fetched to me. Good measurements doesn't necessarily make a realistic sounding speaker but I'm sure realistic sounding speakers will also measure good.
So remind us exactly how much experience you have with designing with and measuring good quality drivers for use in quality home audio systems, optimised for realistic detailed playback of acoustical instruments. Drivers and application used would be a good start. 😛
If by this you mean that good components (drivers) don't necessarily make good loudspeaker systems, I completely agree. Horns mostly sound bad, but good waveguides can sound superb. You have to have good drivers to start, but the rest is pure engineering.
You really do need to hear a good system with pro drivers as you are arguing with people who have heard both and you have not.
Well in many cases you may be correct but just becasue the systems themselves are not up to snuff doesn't meen the drivers are not suitable. I think some people miss this point. You can take the same drivers and use different crossovers and box volumes and end up with a very different system that is indeed suitable for High Fidelity reproduction at home.
Rob🙂
Once I learned the truth I only build domestic speakers using pro audio type drivers.
Does anyone have measurements that show pro audio drivers are not suitable?
Someone posted that HiFi drivers have better measurements and I asked for those. I think most can not even prove HiFi drivers are ever better at all but since they spend money on them they have to justify that purchase with opinion supporting them online.
Right the best drivers I have found are actually Pro audio drivers.
Its funny that some people think 84dB sensitivity driver designs are remotely good. Push them at all and they suck. Im not in the audio game to listen to elevator music at 60dBs 😉
All drivers have a sound of their own, to me the first (and perhaps most time consuming) step is to find those that sound the most realistic to you with your favourite music then you start with matching and engineering and listening and and...
I feel the same about horns, waveguides, not sure. What's the reason for the foam in your waveguide?
If I haven't heard pro drivers, I wouldn't have made a comment in this thread.
Surely I haven't heard all, just as you can't claim to have heard all hi-fi drivers. Just as I can't tell you what is best for you, can anyone tell what is best for me, it just depends on what aspects are most important for each individual. I also believe listening skills and system quality have a large influence on what we regard as good.
SPL and distortion does matter. High fidelty music has peaks of +30dB and your so called hifi drivers puke tons of distortion past a certain SPL and that SPL is lower then you think.
Sit back more then 6 feet and you realize this. How about 15 feet? forget it, HiFi drivers are useless for high fidelity.
So before you just summarize what is good and not good you should look at the actually numbers.
I would rather build/buy speakers without limitations but that is just mean.
Accuracy is key and measurements show the accuracy is on the side of the pro audio drivers because they are in the business of just doing that and not in the business of huge profit margin, branding **.
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