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Old 30th June 2012, 01:05 AM   #51
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Hey, once in a while I get a good tip from threads like this...not often though.
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Old 30th June 2012, 01:06 AM   #52
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Caps? So 1970's.
DSP rules.
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Old 30th June 2012, 01:12 AM   #53
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No one in this thread has said that any capacitor improves the sound or reduces distortion. Some have said one cap sounds better than another, not that it's more accurate, or bigger, or heavier, or prettier. You don't have to agree, but you should accept it.

We are not saving lives or going into space; we are listening to music. What a cap does in an exotic machine's complicated circuitry might be different from what it does to a bunch of jumbled sine waves before they pass to a simple motorized transducer. Any good engineer probably cannot accept that, but a wise engineer could.

There is a polite way to disagree with someone, and possibly even educate them that what they believe is misguided. There is no decent way to tell someone their opinion is worthless. All of us are interested in one thing: getting good sound. If some wish to pursue that goal through measurements and scientific testing, no one here is trying to convince them with insults and sarcasm that their method is pointless, their efforts wasted, their conclusions false.

We all recognize the advances that come from superior engineering and careful execution of concept. We should also recognize that Edison created and perfected most of his inventions by trying almost every reasonable alternative, and some unreasonable ones, to make them work.

Some prefer to pursue their goals through comparative personal experience, and then share their impressions. Why is it necessary to discredit their opinions? Perhaps they don't have access to sophisticated testing equipment or the technical skills to make proper use of it. Is that a reason to give up trying? Does it automatically make every judgment invalid? One will surely have good and bad candidates in the trial population, for any number of reasons (size, cost, color, some idiot's opinion), but eventually the experimenter will make a selection appropriate for himself. What is lost? What is gained? Why is it so important to you?

We can all find ridiculous claims and statements in the audio press, and that proves nothing. I quit reading that crap years ago. I can't argue that there isn't plenty of elaborate, expensive BS in the range of audio products, and there are many easy targets for the shills and phonies. I don't think anyone can argue any better that some people don't hear stuff differently than others, and some things sound better to them. Please, please, please let the listeners tell us about them. We can try it and decide for ourselves. We don't need guardianship or engineering expertise. You may possess knowledge far in advance of anyone else posting here, but what do you HEAR?

This thread is about what caps you use, not what scientific method you used to determine which cap is the best. Tell us what caps you use, perhaps why you use them compared to others (I really hope you have at least tried others. If not, you are more ignorant than the suckers who buy the biggest or most colorful.). If one reason is sonics, let us know. If the reason is technical or better measurements, no one will deny that's also important. Perhaps moreso, perhaps not. We don't want lectures on proper testing or engineering principles. And we don't want to be dismissed as children easily separated from our money by ruthless hucksters selling magic beans. I have to believe that most of the guys who sell caps, boutique or otherwise, do so because they think, for some reason, their product is better than others.

It's good to be skeptical; it's not very productive to be cynical. Maybe I am the biggest sucker, but I sure like the way some caps sound. Some others, not so much. If I tell someone else about it, what's the harm? If some poor sap puts faith in my opinion and buys something I recommend, has he lost anything or has he gained experience? So far, I must say, he'll be pretty happy that at least he gave it a try.

Peace,
Tom E
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Old 30th June 2012, 01:30 AM   #54
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Caps? So 1970's.
FULL RANGE BABY!
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Old 30th June 2012, 02:34 AM   #55
RAART is offline RAART  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madisonears View Post
No one in this thread has said that any capacitor improves the sound or reduces distortion. Some have said one cap sounds better than another, not that it's more accurate, or bigger, or heavier, or prettier. You don't have to agree, but you should accept it.

We are not saving lives or going into space; we are listening to music. What a cap does in an exotic machine's complicated circuitry might be different from what it does to a bunch of jumbled sine waves before they pass to a simple motorized transducer. Any good engineer probably cannot accept that, but a wise engineer could.

There is a polite way to disagree with someone, and possibly even educate them that what they believe is misguided. There is no decent way to tell someone their opinion is worthless. All of us are interested in one thing: getting good sound. If some wish to pursue that goal through measurements and scientific testing, no one here is trying to convince them with insults and sarcasm that their method is pointless, their efforts wasted, their conclusions false.

We all recognize the advances that come from superior engineering and careful execution of concept. We should also recognize that Edison created and perfected most of his inventions by trying almost every reasonable alternative, and some unreasonable ones, to make them work.

Some prefer to pursue their goals through comparative personal experience, and then share their impressions. Why is it necessary to discredit their opinions? Perhaps they don't have access to sophisticated testing equipment or the technical skills to make proper use of it. Is that a reason to give up trying? Does it automatically make every judgment invalid? One will surely have good and bad candidates in the trial population, for any number of reasons (size, cost, color, some idiot's opinion), but eventually the experimenter will make a selection appropriate for himself. What is lost? What is gained? Why is it so important to you?

We can all find ridiculous claims and statements in the audio press, and that proves nothing. I quit reading that crap years ago. I can't argue that there isn't plenty of elaborate, expensive BS in the range of audio products, and there are many easy targets for the shills and phonies. I don't think anyone can argue any better that some people don't hear stuff differently than others, and some things sound better to them. Please, please, please let the listeners tell us about them. We can try it and decide for ourselves. We don't need guardianship or engineering expertise. You may possess knowledge far in advance of anyone else posting here, but what do you HEAR?

This thread is about what caps you use, not what scientific method you used to determine which cap is the best. Tell us what caps you use, perhaps why you use them compared to others (I really hope you have at least tried others. If not, you are more ignorant than the suckers who buy the biggest or most colorful.). If one reason is sonics, let us know. If the reason is technical or better measurements, no one will deny that's also important. Perhaps moreso, perhaps not. We don't want lectures on proper testing or engineering principles. And we don't want to be dismissed as children easily separated from our money by ruthless hucksters selling magic beans. I have to believe that most of the guys who sell caps, boutique or otherwise, do so because they think, for some reason, their product is better than others.

It's good to be skeptical; it's not very productive to be cynical. Maybe I am the biggest sucker, but I sure like the way some caps sound. Some others, not so much. If I tell someone else about it, what's the harm? If some poor sap puts faith in my opinion and buys something I recommend, has he lost anything or has he gained experience? So far, I must say, he'll be pretty happy that at least he gave it a try.

Peace,
Tom E
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Old 30th June 2012, 02:40 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Roberts View Post
FULL RANGE BABY!
So 1930's.
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Old 30th June 2012, 02:42 AM   #57
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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1930's......
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Old 30th June 2012, 02:53 AM   #58
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I use MIT PPFXS With RTX bypasses, both fim and foil, expensive and large to build crossovers out of, but far more resolving and detailed than the Solens they replaced in the Martin Logan CLX. I don't think Martin Logan should be using $30 worth of caps in a $25k pair of speakers, not because the Solen caps are cheap, but because they sound compressed, grainy, and unresolving compared to the film and foils.

There are some here who question better caps, it's like eating a $50 steak - if you appreciate it and can afford it then great, A $18 steak at the keg will keep other's happy, a $8 Sirloin on the BBQ at home suits others - all are steaks and all can be equally satisfying to the diner, but don't knock a great steakhouse just because it's expensive.

If you can't hear the difference between metalised film and good film and foil capacitors then possibly your better off spending the funds on Qtips's instead

Last edited by ticknpop; 30th June 2012 at 03:07 AM.
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Old 30th June 2012, 02:55 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5th element View Post
That's the problem Tom, people throw opinions around based solely on their personal subjective experience, an experience that is far more likely to be swayed by a subjective bias then it is by the component itself.

I strongly dislike the boutique components because they lure the unsuspecting towards the possibility of spending far more then they should on things that will have only a tiny chance, if any at all, on improving the sound.
David mentioned that subjective opinions are basically trolling and I know exactly where he is coming from, a subjective comment is only valid for the person who made that comment. I absolutely hate it when a thread appears about caps/components whatever and its filled with subjective opinions and it becomes apparent that the original poster starts thinking that those 'opinions' are worth more then the sensible, logical, engineering side of things, the side that designs equipment that keeps people alive and the side that allows us to put a space station into orbit with people living on it.
Hey 5th Element,

It just dawned on me that I was involved in a thread earlier today, arguing much of what you argue about boutique parts and I did so without reference to this specious concept of objectivity. Indeed, if forced into that dichotomy, which I reject, one would have to conclude that I come down on the subjectivist side.

See here: WTB: 4 x 100kOhm/2Watts Shinkoh resistors

I edited and published that Ongaku article, so I have a bit of insight into the mythology it produced.

Just putting this forward to argue that self-declared objectivists do not have a monopoly on sensible component selection!

Why am I doing this so often? GOOD question!! Trying to be helpful I guess...
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Old 30th June 2012, 02:57 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett View Post
So 1930's.
MICA DIAPHRAGM MAGNETIC HEADPHONES, DAWG!!
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