I was going to delete some posts but have decided to let them stand. DavidL has been warned. It is not so much the fact that he doesn't like subjective reviews, but the way he broaches the subject that is the problem. Could we all please get back to the original question and not turn this into yet another tiresome subective vs objective debate.
Yeah, we do tend to get a little carried away, some of these threads about "my thing made of gold sounds better than your thing made of silver" start to sound almost religious in their fervor.
My basic opinion is really just to balance what you spend on crossover parts with what you spend on drivers and construction. There has to be a point of diminishing returns once you start going up the quality scale where you reach a point that you find yourself saying "is this part really going to offer me $100 more sonic advantage, or am I just silver plating my Audi?"
If I was going to build a $100,000 pair of speakers, I might choose to spend $5000 on crossover parts with capacitors made of silver dipped in gold and sealed shut with a tongue kiss from Jessica Alba. Car guys do crazy stuff as well, I mean, why spend $10,000 on wheels when the $200 ones hold your car up just fine?
There are some boutique parts that might offer a few percent more performance / tolerance / longevity / whatever and there are people who will spend 50x more cash to get 1.1x performance. I might not be one of them, but I'm certainly not going to denigrate someone else because they do.
Just use whatever you feel is in your budget and is commensurate to what you've spent on speakers and you'll probably never find yourself saying "damn, if only I'd got that $200 cap instead of this $15 one."
My basic opinion is really just to balance what you spend on crossover parts with what you spend on drivers and construction. There has to be a point of diminishing returns once you start going up the quality scale where you reach a point that you find yourself saying "is this part really going to offer me $100 more sonic advantage, or am I just silver plating my Audi?"
If I was going to build a $100,000 pair of speakers, I might choose to spend $5000 on crossover parts with capacitors made of silver dipped in gold and sealed shut with a tongue kiss from Jessica Alba. Car guys do crazy stuff as well, I mean, why spend $10,000 on wheels when the $200 ones hold your car up just fine?
There are some boutique parts that might offer a few percent more performance / tolerance / longevity / whatever and there are people who will spend 50x more cash to get 1.1x performance. I might not be one of them, but I'm certainly not going to denigrate someone else because they do.
Just use whatever you feel is in your budget and is commensurate to what you've spent on speakers and you'll probably never find yourself saying "damn, if only I'd got that $200 cap instead of this $15 one."
I would state that all listening opinions are affected in one way or another because you will always go at something with a bias. This might be unconscious, it might simply be that you have a headache coming on or you're a little tired when doing the listening. Anything and everything can affect your perception.
You cannot say for sure, you can be confident, but it is not a certainty. Perhaps you really wanted the cheaper component to sound better.
Yes you are, cheaper components mean you get more bang for your buck, you've been biased the second you pressed 'purchase'.
Yes but those differences are more the likely going to be swamped by something else. Like an amplifier with a damping factor of 1000 is reduced to 50 by the addition of a couple of meters of speaker cable.
It isn't fraudulent to put the actual cap inside a larger can and then sell it. It's only fraudulent if someone is trying to sell a NP lytic as a poly cap by repackaging it. I don't remember where I saw it, but someone took a large 'audiophile' film cap to bits and found what I described.
No I am not. In fact I am saying the exact opposite, that it is better to spend your money on areas other then a boutique component, as in engineer a better PCB, buy/build a better amplifier.
I never said otherwise? Of course poor/good design trumps a boutique component every single time, that's entirely my point. And of course a poor quality component is going to hinder the design, but we're discussing good quality parts vs good quality parts.
This is complete non-sense... we humans have the ability to concentrate and there are hundreds of methods to rule out/reduce bias/mood/etc. (like repeating several times the test in different moments...)
Non-sense... again.. After you spent money on a jewelry component you can't desire that the cheaper one is better...
You're arguing all and the contrary...
This not the point... if you already did your job with circuit and PCB you can optimize performance with a good choice of components.
You can hinder a design with a good quality component that it's not best suited for that role.
Industrial parts from main manifacturers are all good quality, nevertheless each one has his best role and a sound signature.
It is not nonsense at all, otherwise we wouldn't need to use specific methods for ruling out/reducing the effects of our mood or bias. We use those methods specifically because we can't be trusted to make a valid comparison without them.
Simply changing the cap in your loudspeaker and going for a casual listen is about as uncontrolled and unreliable as it gets, which is the point - simple subjective opinions on 'what cap sounds the best' should be taken with a grain of salt. Whereas at least the objective side of the argument is backed up by good engineering and scientific principles.
Yes, you don't need to buy a boutique component to do this though.
We are not talking about using a good quality but inappropriate part, as has been stated several times already, going from one good quality polyprop film cap to another good quality polyprop film cap. Not going from a good quality Y5V ceramic chip to a good quality polyprop cap.
I wouldn't be so drastic but for sure they're usefull to make some sense from listening tests.
I do use (some of) them and when I express an opinion I'm pretty sure on what I'm expressing.
Obviously... a lot of times, when I've tried what others told to be good, I was disappointed.
But this doesn't mean that all parts of the same type and/or quality sound the same.
I've had direct experience that it's not so.
Never said that, I usually choose among industrial parts.
Also there's a lot of snake oil in the market and often prices are too high.
But some components considered as boutique ones are better sounding, like caps from Mundorf or Intertechnik.
I know, I've suggested reasonably priced caps from Mundorf and Intertechnik.
My suggestion is based on my subjective experience using them.
Did you try those caps or your opinion is solely based on dogmas?
No, we're not talking ceramic or 'lytic vs poly, but maybe we should be. Or perhaps discuss careful consideration of a mass-produced, inexpensive, just-meets-spec, industrial grade poly cap vs a cap manufactured in small quantities only because it supposedly exhibits some "superior" quality other than price.
I'm tired of people usig the word "boutique" the same way people on FOX News use the word "liberal". Why does being a boutique part make it bad? Talk about bias! You've dismissed it before you even have it in your hand, much less tried it.
Anyone who makes a comparison based on a single, brief, casual audition is a fool, and I seriously doubt that anyone here fits that description. Why do you bother postulating these absurd scenarios?
Do you honestly believe that anyone who buys caps that cost more than the very cheapest is perfectly stupid and completely incapable of making a valid decision that one sounds better than another? Rational people are perfectly able to be critical, even of their own actions and desires. We are not children who want only the shiny and pretty things. Please stop beating us over the head with good engineering and scientific principles. We are aware that those exist, and we ascribe to them an appropriate value. We also value our own perceptions, flawed as they may be. We try our best to diminish those flaws to the point where they do not influenece our judgment. At least give us credit for that.
Another thread buried under the hubris of the same stupid debate. When will you stop arguing and just let us discuss the topic?
And please stop the ridiculous hyperbole and "comical" (they're not, really) posts. Is anyone capable of a sensible, possibly informative sharing of opinions without exaggeration and insults? This shouldn't be a contest to see who can be the funniest or snarkiest. Chances are good that, if you think you are being either, you are neither.
Thanks to the mod for the warning. It's too bad people can't contribute without getting nasty. Please, everyone, at least try.
Regards,
Tom E
I'm tired of people usig the word "boutique" the same way people on FOX News use the word "liberal". Why does being a boutique part make it bad? Talk about bias! You've dismissed it before you even have it in your hand, much less tried it.
Anyone who makes a comparison based on a single, brief, casual audition is a fool, and I seriously doubt that anyone here fits that description. Why do you bother postulating these absurd scenarios?
Do you honestly believe that anyone who buys caps that cost more than the very cheapest is perfectly stupid and completely incapable of making a valid decision that one sounds better than another? Rational people are perfectly able to be critical, even of their own actions and desires. We are not children who want only the shiny and pretty things. Please stop beating us over the head with good engineering and scientific principles. We are aware that those exist, and we ascribe to them an appropriate value. We also value our own perceptions, flawed as they may be. We try our best to diminish those flaws to the point where they do not influenece our judgment. At least give us credit for that.
Another thread buried under the hubris of the same stupid debate. When will you stop arguing and just let us discuss the topic?
And please stop the ridiculous hyperbole and "comical" (they're not, really) posts. Is anyone capable of a sensible, possibly informative sharing of opinions without exaggeration and insults? This shouldn't be a contest to see who can be the funniest or snarkiest. Chances are good that, if you think you are being either, you are neither.
Thanks to the mod for the warning. It's too bad people can't contribute without getting nasty. Please, everyone, at least try.
Regards,
Tom E
Even though I have been in the audio business for a long time and a hobbyist even longer, I am amazed and baffled by the range of audiophile caps available today.
I think people do tend to confuse price and value. That is, there is a tendency to organize the field by price--one of the few objective metrics available to the purchaser (pricetags are objective)--and many seem to understand that the more expensive parts or gear are somehow "better."
One insane thing I noticed in audio is that people who are prepared to spend $100k on an amp often will not spend less. People looking for a $2k CD player often will not even look at the good $800 challengers. This seems especially true in the Asian luxury market which I have some exposure to, but also happens in the Atlantic markets. The budget allocation often precedes and governs the selection process.
So people who have the scratch and want the BEST often will not dream of using ex-Soviet military oil caps or well-wrapped industrial poly caps, they will be looking at Dueland cast caps and whatnot. A rebranded poly wrap and fill cap from an industrial supplier is seen as value added or even quality-assured while the very same cap without the audiophile name and price would be ignored.
What is the answer? Is there an answer?
One could try them all but that is an absurd path to finding a set of caps for a single pair of xovers. One could read "cap shootouts" but I don't know these guys or what they are listening for. They could be looking for hyperdetail and resolution where I am looking for texture or a sense of organic wholeness.
I think the "answer" depends on the person, their goals, and what they see as a proper path to achieve them and I don't expect anybody to think or act exactly the way I do or know what I think I know or understand the world through my eyeglasses.
Russian KBG paper/foil caps for $5 apiece make me very happy. Others could never be comfortable with this selection, whether for sonic or ancillary reasons.
I'm planning to use these $5 caps in a crossover for $20000 worth of Japanese field coil woofers. I might try a few other caps as a reality check of sorts but I sure won't be buying Dueland caps worth more than my car!
They might be really great caps but I would feel silly, even if I did have the money to blow...but that is just me.
I see all of this audio madness like sex...do whatever you like as long as I don't have to watch or participate! I reserve a right to have an opinion on it but in the end what others do it is up to them.
Scientific arguments for the universal superiority of certain sexual or aesthetic preferences are likely to be ignored, as well they should be.
If science could blaze a path to happiness we should all be a lot happier than we are and the members of this forum who are the most apologetic for the ultimate authority of "scientific procedures" should be the happiest clams in the ocean...and I don't always see that being true. This very thread is a case in point.
The audio guys who do seem happier and more content arrived at their conclusions though experience and hands-on learning, listening and experimenting, making mistakes and adjustments. Worked for me!
I think people do tend to confuse price and value. That is, there is a tendency to organize the field by price--one of the few objective metrics available to the purchaser (pricetags are objective)--and many seem to understand that the more expensive parts or gear are somehow "better."
One insane thing I noticed in audio is that people who are prepared to spend $100k on an amp often will not spend less. People looking for a $2k CD player often will not even look at the good $800 challengers. This seems especially true in the Asian luxury market which I have some exposure to, but also happens in the Atlantic markets. The budget allocation often precedes and governs the selection process.
So people who have the scratch and want the BEST often will not dream of using ex-Soviet military oil caps or well-wrapped industrial poly caps, they will be looking at Dueland cast caps and whatnot. A rebranded poly wrap and fill cap from an industrial supplier is seen as value added or even quality-assured while the very same cap without the audiophile name and price would be ignored.
What is the answer? Is there an answer?
One could try them all but that is an absurd path to finding a set of caps for a single pair of xovers. One could read "cap shootouts" but I don't know these guys or what they are listening for. They could be looking for hyperdetail and resolution where I am looking for texture or a sense of organic wholeness.
I think the "answer" depends on the person, their goals, and what they see as a proper path to achieve them and I don't expect anybody to think or act exactly the way I do or know what I think I know or understand the world through my eyeglasses.
Russian KBG paper/foil caps for $5 apiece make me very happy. Others could never be comfortable with this selection, whether for sonic or ancillary reasons.
I'm planning to use these $5 caps in a crossover for $20000 worth of Japanese field coil woofers. I might try a few other caps as a reality check of sorts but I sure won't be buying Dueland caps worth more than my car!
They might be really great caps but I would feel silly, even if I did have the money to blow...but that is just me.
I see all of this audio madness like sex...do whatever you like as long as I don't have to watch or participate! I reserve a right to have an opinion on it but in the end what others do it is up to them.
Scientific arguments for the universal superiority of certain sexual or aesthetic preferences are likely to be ignored, as well they should be.
If science could blaze a path to happiness we should all be a lot happier than we are and the members of this forum who are the most apologetic for the ultimate authority of "scientific procedures" should be the happiest clams in the ocean...and I don't always see that being true. This very thread is a case in point.
The audio guys who do seem happier and more content arrived at their conclusions though experience and hands-on learning, listening and experimenting, making mistakes and adjustments. Worked for me!
Generally because it's either a relabeled standard cap with an enhanced pricetag, or a custom, small volume product which will have lower winding tension than a well-made mass-produced product. In the worst cases, it will be made using design principles which satisfy a market niche while actually reducing performance and reliability.
Right on!!...Don't be vague, ask for SPRAGUE!!
Don't laugh...when I was back in Austin, I compared Elna, Black Gate, Cerafine etc etc etc and the best sounding electrolytic caps I found were surplus Sprague red tops from the surplus joint out on Burnet Road.
Here is an awesome sounding xover cap that I am trying in a series xover design. The Capacitron Company!! Wonder what deadly toxic substances lurk within?
Wonder if this qualifies me for reverse boutique?
Sadly, I only have 3 pieces of this obscure antique. I doubt they will catch on big in the Asian mono market, so I'll probably take the extra one to the grave.
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Forgive me though when I choose not to believe any of your or anyone elses subjective opinions.
I don't have any axes to grind with regards to this kind of thing, but what I dislike is when threads tend towards someone believing subjective opinions more then what the science would teach them.
No, you didn't, but neither did I say a lot of things that you've inferred that I have. People seem to have a habit of doing this on internet forums and it gets old very fast. This isn't a knock it's just an observation. Maybe in this case it's created by a slightly language divide too due to different ways of interpretation.
You wont get any argument from me.
Anything with an inflated price is likely to be suspect, why? Because if it were truly better the industry would adopt them/it, they'd go into mass production and hey presto, they'd be priced competitively.
Well better sounding is once again only your subjective experience.
Did you try those caps or your opinion is solely based on dogmas?
I build mainly active systems these days and sometimes a DC protection cap is necessary for the tweeter, sometimes it isn't. The absolute best you can ever achieve would be, no capacitor at all. I have never experienced anything that would make me go - wow you know what, those poly caps I were using must have been **** because now my music has been transformed. In all cases, with and without the poly caps, the systems have sounded great, I wouldn't even know if a cap was there or not unless you told me.
Right on!!...Don't be vague, ask for SPRAGUE!!
Don't laugh...when I was back in Austin, I compared Elna, Black Gate, Cerafine etc etc etc and the best sounding electrolytic caps I found were surplus Sprague red tops from the surplus joint out on Burnet Road.
Here is an awesome sounding xover cap that I am trying in a series xover design. The Capacitron Company!! Wonder what deadly toxic substances lurk within?
Wonder if this qualifies me for reverse boutique?
Sadly, I only have 3 pieces of this obscure antique. I doubt they will catch on big in the Asian mono market, so I'll probably take the extra one to the grave.
I've tested 40 yr old Sprague Compulytic caps out of vintage Acoustic Research speakers and they are fine; not worth replacing with modern film types, because measurement-wise, there won't be any significant difference in the sound.
No problem about that. It's a (almost) free world.
There's no science law that say that all components should sound the same...
Not in this world dominated by finance.
Companies drops entire categories of products not because they don't make profit but because they don't make enough profit in a single quarter...
Obviously, you have to try yourself.
This sounds like the old Marx Bros. joke: "Who are you going to believe? Me?...Or your own lying eyes?"
Like I asked before, not expecting an answer, what are the scientific criteria that will provide a valid and universal guide to the selection of xover caps?
Furthermore, assuming that no perfect cap exists, what are the criteria for choosing among various imperfect caps? Does a slightly more microphonic cap with a superior DF beat a less microphonic caps with higher dissipation factor?
Even if we were somehow able to adequately map measurable characteristics to sound production, how can we rank a world of problematic imperfect parts?
This is not to say that some degree of scientifically-informed skepticism or generally questioning attitude is not useful, but I would argue that science does not always provide clearcut answers to the questions we need to ask.
And what to do if listening contradicts "science"-- or, more properly, one's imperfect mastery of these complex interrelated physical principles, often reductionistic in the way they are conceived for logico-mathematical manipulation, and how they translate into auditory experience of meaningful aesthetic sounds, coded in genres which might not share a common tonal and timbral language to begin with?
Do we go with science to resolve disputes? Hell no...I'll go with my ears.
Whether my individual decision and supporting rationale would convince a skeptic over the internet is immaterial. Who are we trying to please? I say myself. Y'all are on your own!
What my experience teaches me is that going only on "science" risks missing out on a lot of potential life pleasure, especially since it so easily substitutes for actually trying things out in the minds of many with this intellectual inclination. Surprises are the fun part.
But yeah...there's plenty of capacitor snake oil to sidestep so keep your brain in gear and a chain on your wallet!
I say sensitivity to marketing ploys and salesy rhetoric is more useful than a high tech cap checker in this project.
In general, and I realize taste and specific application matters, I have had some of my best results with paper dielectric caps--some oil, some dry, mostly foil rather than metallized. This is a relatively untapped sector of the market, probably because wannabe audio entrepreneurs can't find ready made industrial versions to rebrand!
The only scientific explanation I can muster is that maybe paper damps microphonics and I offer that half-heartedly because I'm not fully convinced.
No but there is a science that says if it doesn't measure any differently, or if the difference remains below the threshold of our perception, that you wont be able to distinguish one thing from another.
Yes and there are small niche industries such as the audiophile world that will always exist and as long as those companies are happy only selling small amounts they will always be around. If however those products did represent a genuine improvement over other industry standards, then you can bet that there would be industry standards just as 'good' as those audiophile parts at a fraction of the price because lots of people would want them.
Obviously, you have to try yourself.
No, I don't need to try myself. I know what no cap sounds like and it doesn't get any better then that as a point of reference.
A serious question...can you give me a measurement regimen for capacitors that you feel fully characterizes the capacitor for this purpose?
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