This isn't how it went down, but I wont elaborate.
You do realise here that the exact same can be said for the subjectivists. Except that in my position I haven't insulted nor attacked anyone, all I've said is that subjectivists are most likely imagining what they are hearing. This isn't an insult, it's just reality, I used to be a subjectivist, then I realised that you get nowhere fast relying on your fallible sense of sound.
That is the problem though because a subjectivist cannot in anyway prove it, all they can do is say your measurement methods aren't good enough, or aren't measuring the right thing etc, it's never ending. A subjectivist is free to sit there regardless of what it is you suggest they measure and simply claim - I can hear it, your measurement must be flawed.
Now these measurements, the procedures and their principles are what's been necessary for science and technology to advance and progress to the point that it has. Now are you suggesting that they are in some way correct for everything else, but just wrong when it comes to our sense of sound? A sense that we well know is extremely open to being fooled? How logical does that sound?
A straightforward answer was given, the objectivists point of view is always fairly simple and straightforward.
That is the truth though, it is very easy to fool almost all of our senses should someone want to.
This is not how objectivists work. We build equipment and choose components based on technical specifications, we also build towards a set of specifications/a set goal and once the piece of equipment has been built we measure it to make sure that it does what we wanted it to do. If it does, we sit down and listen and it sounds great, we are content.
Now back when I was a subjectivist I'd sit down and think, oh, I wonder if I should have bought that cap instead of this one, would that have been better? Can I manage to find the money to buy several different expensive boutique caps just to find out? I was always wondering if I'd made the right decision, second guessing everything, second guessing science, second guessing myself, for what? To satisfy my over active imagination and to in some way make me feel better because I too can hear what the subjectivist reviews are talking about? Yeah once upon a time I too have heard the difference between one meter of speaker cable and another but I know that the most likely explanation is that I imagined it, I have no problem accepting this though.
Now when I think, 'I wonder what I can do to make my hifi sound better', I think things like, can I redesign the output buffer circuit in my DSP to be slightly lower noise, how about I try out different methods of compensating my power amplifiers, or how about I try a different type of mid-range driver in my loudspeakers, a higher sensitivity type, I've never done that before. You know spending money on things that make big, measurable and logical differences. Not wondering and spending money on things like, oh I wonder if I should try a different brand of resistor, or a different brand of capacitor in my DAC.
This has gone way off topic and for that I apologise for that, but I felt it necessary to better explain one objectivists point of view in slightly greater detail.
Now with that said I am quite interested in trying out measurements to see how much of a problem capacitor microphony is or could be. I cannot do that at the moment, but it intrigues me enough to want to find out. From everything I've ever read on the subject I don't believe I'll find anything significant, but it is worth giving it a go.
The better-informed "objectivists" (that term is really not accurate- how about "rationalists"?) combine measurements with controlled listening tests. Subjectivity is a powerful thing IF you adopt a "trust your ears" viewpoint. "Trust your ears" means "judge by sound only, not by sight, preconceptions, and prejudices," which translates to "controlled listening." If someone demonstrates that they can hear a difference between A and B by ears only, the fact of whether or not I can measure a difference doesn't change the reality that there is one.
That said, no-one has ever, ever demonstrated a sonic difference in the absence of a measured one. it could happen, in a philosophical sense, but don't hold your breath. Empty claims of miraculous differences without evidence, sure, plenty of those, and feel free to ignore them.
This is important because even small changes in component values can bring about changes in the FR that one should be able to hear, such as a 0.5dB change across 1-2 octaves around the over frequency, which usually occupies the area we are most sensitive too. This will sound like a subtle change in the tonal balance and you have every reason to be able to hear it, it isn't the cap that sounds different though.
Exactly and this make lots of logical sense as you can buy 1% line level polyprop or polystyrene caps for very little money compared to the high level ones in loudspeaker crossovers. You also do away with inductors altogether, which if anything are the biggest problem (if they can be called a problem) in passive xovers.
Of course you also bring op-amps into the equation, which according to some people are pure evil. Of course you do have to make sure you do the active crossover correctly otherwise you can create more problems then you solve, but there are books you can read that will help you with that.
With absolutely no intent of insulting anyone, the subjectivists are, IMO, synonymous with those called "golden ears". They say they are able to hear differences that many apparently do not, including me. Assuming they are hearing and not simply imagining those differences, I don't know whether to envy or to pity them. I could envy them on the basis that I'm apparently missing out on something good, or I could pity them because surely they could never be satisfied with their audio systems because they would always be finding faults with its imperfect performance.
Paul
Paul
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It easy to hear differences when there are none - and sometimes just as difficult to hear difference when they are there. 
Controlled testing is important.
So called "Golden Ears" get a bad rap because hearing is so tricky. But I do believe they exist - in fact I know a few forum members here (that I will not name) that ought to wear that badge. I've been witness to their listening skills.
In my line of work I might be called a "Golden Eye." My job is seeing things in images that other folks don't - it's how I earn my living. And I know people who are more skilled than I. It's nothing superhuman, just a skill that can be acquired. Those skills can be acquired in other senses, too.
Controlled testing is important.So called "Golden Ears" get a bad rap because hearing is so tricky. But I do believe they exist - in fact I know a few forum members here (that I will not name) that ought to wear that badge. I've been witness to their listening skills.
In my line of work I might be called a "Golden Eye." My job is seeing things in images that other folks don't - it's how I earn my living. And I know people who are more skilled than I. It's nothing superhuman, just a skill that can be acquired. Those skills can be acquired in other senses, too.
Imo, Straight active don't sound better than passive , A combination of both active and passive works the best ..
Then you've not done active correctly. Unless of course you're talking about adding passive components to flatten the reactive/resonant nature of the drive units.
Well if your amplifier has DC/turn on thump protection built into it then you should be able to safely omit the cap without anything untoward happening. Of course whether or not you're comfortable with this is another thing entirely. Personally, I ask myself this question - If something were to go wrong and the tweeters did explode, would I be annoyed at having to replace them?
If I had a pair of scanspeaks top line beryllium domes or their revelator/illuminator ring radiators then you can be sure that the protection cap will be there.
Currently I am using the scanspeak built HDS tweeters, which aren't exactly cheap but as you can buy replacement dome/coil assemblies I don't feel so bad in leaving out the cap.
Ironically though the only time I've ever blown a tweeter was when the DC cap was present. I don't to this day know why it melted, sometimes you get unlucky.
If I had a pair of scanspeaks top line beryllium domes or their revelator/illuminator ring radiators then you can be sure that the protection cap will be there.
Currently I am using the scanspeak built HDS tweeters, which aren't exactly cheap but as you can buy replacement dome/coil assemblies I don't feel so bad in leaving out the cap.
Ironically though the only time I've ever blown a tweeter was when the DC cap was present. I don't to this day know why it melted, sometimes you get unlucky.
Dear 5th Element,
while you probably didn't crossed the limit like I did, saying that others are (most likely) imagining what they hear is not exactly kind or respectful, IMHO.
When someone tell me so I feel offended, from my POV is like saying I'm a fool.
In fact no one can tell for sure what others are hearing or feeling, isn't it?
Being a human with a human brain does not make you a fool- no-one, and I mean NO-ONE, is immune to hearing or seeing things that aren't there. If you don't believe that, go see a good sleight-of-hand artist. That's why a century of psychological research needs to be considered and CONTROLLED listening is the only accurate way to judge what you hear.
For those of you who have not seen it and have an hour to spare, it's well worth your time.
Ethan Weiner's Audio Myth workshop give at the 2009 AES convention.
Audio Myths Workshop - YouTube
Ethan Weiner's Audio Myth workshop give at the 2009 AES convention.
Audio Myths Workshop - YouTube
I use a 120uF blocking cap for my horn drivers to block amplifier DC offset and as a general safety measure. Just to further muddy the waters here, I do use a polypropylene cap, but it's the motor-run variety in a big metal can
I used a DC protective 500 uF Bennic NPE in series with a capless xo design of my own* which was originated by Sonus Faber. Visit here for a review of the Extrema loudspeakers and Martin Colloms intro which discusses the Extrama xo. My own acoustic tests done with and without the Bennic cap did not show any significant difference in freq. response.
Sonus Faber Extrema loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
* Introducing the "INTIMATES" (high WAF & quality sound)
Sonus Faber Extrema loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
* Introducing the "INTIMATES" (high WAF & quality sound)
I have used several different metallized polypropylene capacitors to test my speakers.They are the same 4.7uF value capacitors.
Solen PB 400V (3.57 USD)
Axon True Cap 250V (1.69 USD)
Mundorf MKP 250V (5.03 USD)
V Cap OIMP 250V (79.99 USD)
After listening tests( it took about 3 months for capacitor breaking in), V Cap OIMP was the most transparent, and smooth sound cap among them. It is clearly audible. With the same set up, I have measured frequency responses and dirstortions of speakers with different capacitors. They are no diferent in frequency responses and distortions. I think that we can not measure something like transparence and smoothness of sound from speakers. These sounds is audible only by listening( by ears).
1- V Cap OIMP : smooth and transparent
2- Mundorf MKP : open, lack of detail and image
3- Axon True Cap : open, lack of detail, not harsh
4- Solen PB : closed-in, harsh but detail
I trust my ears ( 40+ of listening music, 25+ of building speaker crossovers).Some people may not agree with me about this but I am happy to find out that there are differences in sound from different capacitors.
Happy Canada Day!
Solen PB 400V (3.57 USD)
Axon True Cap 250V (1.69 USD)
Mundorf MKP 250V (5.03 USD)
V Cap OIMP 250V (79.99 USD)
After listening tests( it took about 3 months for capacitor breaking in), V Cap OIMP was the most transparent, and smooth sound cap among them. It is clearly audible. With the same set up, I have measured frequency responses and dirstortions of speakers with different capacitors. They are no diferent in frequency responses and distortions. I think that we can not measure something like transparence and smoothness of sound from speakers. These sounds is audible only by listening( by ears).
1- V Cap OIMP : smooth and transparent
2- Mundorf MKP : open, lack of detail and image
3- Axon True Cap : open, lack of detail, not harsh
4- Solen PB : closed-in, harsh but detail
I trust my ears ( 40+ of listening music, 25+ of building speaker crossovers).Some people may not agree with me about this but I am happy to find out that there are differences in sound from different capacitors.
Happy Canada Day!It appears you and Tony Gee have much in common.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Also: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5828
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Also: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5828
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