Two things will affect the soldering process.
1. Flux. Fux will age out, rendering it darn near inert. Once that happens, it's toast.
Using flux formulated for eutectic tin/lead for the no lead alloys will be a mixed bag. Tin/lead flux is made to activate in the 150 C range. If you use this flux on lead free, it will first activate, then burn. If it burns enough before 215 C is reached, the joints will be garbage.
If you use lead free flux with tin/lead, the problem is it may not activate at all, again, garbage joints.
Andrew: that flux is 3% of the roll, halides are .5% max...is that .5% of the flux, or .5% of the entire roll.
Halides are typically zinc chloride, which creates HCl upon heating to convert the surface oxides. That has to be cleaned.
2. The metals. I've had old rolls of solder that were not good with any flux..this due to a lot of tin oxide on the surface. Typically, dross in a solder pot..
Forget about gold contamination, solders will adhere just fine with some gold in the mix, but will go a little grainy as the percentage goes up..nevermind embrittlement, that's another whole ball of wax..
The addition of another metal such as copper or silver, will indeed prevent leaching of surface metals of like content, but ONLY AT THE SOLIDUS OF THE SOLDER. If you go a few degrees over solidus, the melt will indeed pull additional metal into it..this is because the saturation fraction increases as the melt goes up in temp. For example, at solidus, a copper loaded solder will be topped out and not dissolve any more copper....but raise the temp 10 C, and the melt will dissolve copper to a new equilibrium concentration. Copper has the additional property, copper tin solidifies 2 C above the eutectic point, so will create large crystals just before the entire joint hardens...this will show as a very grainy texture on the surface when there is too much copper in the mix.
JC..you probably have bad flux inside very oxidized solder. Chuck it, it's not worth trying to get around it.
Cheers, John
1. Flux. Fux will age out, rendering it darn near inert. Once that happens, it's toast.
Using flux formulated for eutectic tin/lead for the no lead alloys will be a mixed bag. Tin/lead flux is made to activate in the 150 C range. If you use this flux on lead free, it will first activate, then burn. If it burns enough before 215 C is reached, the joints will be garbage.
If you use lead free flux with tin/lead, the problem is it may not activate at all, again, garbage joints.
Andrew: that flux is 3% of the roll, halides are .5% max...is that .5% of the flux, or .5% of the entire roll.
Halides are typically zinc chloride, which creates HCl upon heating to convert the surface oxides. That has to be cleaned.
2. The metals. I've had old rolls of solder that were not good with any flux..this due to a lot of tin oxide on the surface. Typically, dross in a solder pot..
Forget about gold contamination, solders will adhere just fine with some gold in the mix, but will go a little grainy as the percentage goes up..nevermind embrittlement, that's another whole ball of wax..
The addition of another metal such as copper or silver, will indeed prevent leaching of surface metals of like content, but ONLY AT THE SOLIDUS OF THE SOLDER. If you go a few degrees over solidus, the melt will indeed pull additional metal into it..this is because the saturation fraction increases as the melt goes up in temp. For example, at solidus, a copper loaded solder will be topped out and not dissolve any more copper....but raise the temp 10 C, and the melt will dissolve copper to a new equilibrium concentration. Copper has the additional property, copper tin solidifies 2 C above the eutectic point, so will create large crystals just before the entire joint hardens...this will show as a very grainy texture on the surface when there is too much copper in the mix.
JC..you probably have bad flux inside very oxidized solder. Chuck it, it's not worth trying to get around it.
Cheers, John
john curl said:
I am confident Sy is incorrect in that regard..after all, he is waaay older than I am, so he is just, ummm, losin it..
Seriously, though, I'm pretty sure you have either an oxide problem, or you're trying the wrong flux.
Try some lead free flux from home depot. While it's certainly not good for electronics use, if it works, then it's more than likely an activation temp issue.
If you really wanted to, you could buy a tub of Nokorode 14300 R type flux..they were bought by rectorseal. I use it for all solder joints that require tin/silver temperatures. The 14300 is a 1.6 oz container, the 14330 is a 1 lb tub. I just bought 12 pounds of it, but I don't recommend the larger size for at home use, it'll go bad long before you use it up. But it has no halides.
http://www.rectorseal.com/productdata/slderingprdcts/dselectro.htm
Um, John...how is a roll of solder "fun"?
Cheers, John
I know this is prolly a major "NO NO!" to anyone worried about pb contamination of their persons, but before I use a length of solder I take some fine steel wool and wrap it around the solder , squeeze, then pull the solder through effectively wiping off the oxide layer. Makes it nice and shiny and the solder joints turn out better.
I guess if your a health nut you probably want to do this outside with a mask and gloves.
I guess if your a health nut you probably want to do this outside with a mask and gloves.
I ALWAYS pre-clean spool solder with Caig Cramolin Red, before loading it to a solder dispenser. I always get lots of black tarnish on the towelette that I use to wipe it. This way, I use solder on my serious projects that is essentially untouched by human hands. This is part of my $17,000 preamp package.
Hi John,
I reel off some solder from an ancient 5 Lb roll and merrily solder it. I may use flux depending on what I do. I wash after with a toothbrush and Electrowash 2000 (or whatever they call it today). My toothbrush is always germ free.
It's my NOS approach.
You do realize the oxides float on the surface to be cleaned later don't you?
-Chris
I reel off some solder from an ancient 5 Lb roll and merrily solder it. I may use flux depending on what I do. I wash after with a toothbrush and Electrowash 2000 (or whatever they call it today). My toothbrush is always germ free.
It's my NOS approach.
You do realize the oxides float on the surface to be cleaned later don't you?
-Chris
poobah said:
Is that anything like the episode of SNL, the one that has this skit where the make coffee from the jittery guy's armpit sweat, and urine? (they put him on a treadmill, with collectors and hoses on his armpits)
It was a sad day, when I used up my old roll of wonder. You know, the stuff with the gold sunburst 'wonder solder!' sticker on the one end.
Now, it's just this boring blue label. Apparently, the formula is not the same? darn. I liked the way that solder sounded.
PS, just the other day, literally, I came up with a new solder method. I've yet to enact it, though. I think it will dramatically improve the sound of a given piece of audio gear, isofar as a bit of solder can 'change' the sound of a pice of equipment. Largely speaking, it SHOULD remove the sound of the solder, altogether. What should end up happening, is that the equipment will sound as if there are no solder junctions, simply clean continious metal. No junctions. However, it's implementation is for serious, finicky 'high end' construction only.
OK. according to what I am reading here (which is very alarming!!), I should be getting out there and trying to find the right solder...before it is all gone????
Peter Daniel said:It seems to me that the easiest way to compare how different type of solder influences the sound would be creating test interconnects made from solder wire and listening to them in a given system. Anybody tried it yet?
close.
How about building up traces on power amps with uncoated traces..and then listening afterward? I've done this with, oh..I dunno how many pieces of gear. Many times.
But you DID remind me of my new cable I've yet to make. A bit on the dangerous side, though.I've been thinking of making it for, oh, about 10 years or more now, I just haven't managed to get up the nerve!
It dynamically self-adjusts it's impedance to the given signal load.
Geez, somehow I'm always late to all the interesting parties around here.
I know I'll get seriously flamed on this, but I really like using the Cardas Quad-Eutectic solder for two reasons. First, it melts and flows so nicely, and I can't remember the last time I had a bad solder joint. Second, as a metallurgist, to me the quad eutectic aspect is too cool for me to resist, and it's not just a marketing gimmick, it really is an eutectic alloy of lead, tin, silver, and copper, I ran a calorimetric measurement of the liquidus to solidus transition to be sure, and behold, there was only a single energy temperature peak. I won't make any comments on what audible effect any of this might have, though!
John, if you can spare an inch of solder and a postage stamp, I'll throw it in the SEM at work and do a proper quantitative EDS on it. If it is really interesting I'll do an elemental segregation map too.
Cheers, Terry
I know I'll get seriously flamed on this, but I really like using the Cardas Quad-Eutectic solder for two reasons. First, it melts and flows so nicely, and I can't remember the last time I had a bad solder joint. Second, as a metallurgist, to me the quad eutectic aspect is too cool for me to resist, and it's not just a marketing gimmick, it really is an eutectic alloy of lead, tin, silver, and copper, I ran a calorimetric measurement of the liquidus to solidus transition to be sure, and behold, there was only a single energy temperature peak. I won't make any comments on what audible effect any of this might have, though!
John, if you can spare an inch of solder and a postage stamp, I'll throw it in the SEM at work and do a proper quantitative EDS on it. If it is really interesting I'll do an elemental segregation map too.
Cheers, Terry
While I use both Cardas and Wonder solder (I still need to evaluate their effect on sound), my favourite solder to work with is Kester SN63PB37 .020 "44" rosin core
I've built two exact DAC circuits using two different solder types and I preferred Kester over Marigo Fusion solder (which was supplied by a customer).
I've built two exact DAC circuits using two different solder types and I preferred Kester over Marigo Fusion solder (which was supplied by a customer).
Rosin (fluxes) are formulated to clean specific oxides on specific metals. In the "Superior" line, for example, #46 is a no halide formulation for use on Alloy 42, Kovar, and Nickel. #91 is also no halide, but formulated for copper only, while #430 is for Alloy 42, Kovar, Nickel, and gold.john curl said:
So the end application can be very rosin (flux) specific, not only for the base material, but for the temperature range.
And core fluxes can go bad. I've tossed spools that became useless with time.
And, the solder oxidizes all to heck. I've also tossed spools of solid wire solder as a result..
If you don't try a different flux, you'll never know...aren't you always telling people to "try it?"
OH, btw...what 62% tin solder melts at 460 F?? I found:
62Sn/38Pb at 362 F
62.5/36.1/1.4Ag at 354 F
62.6/37/.4 at 361 F
61.5/35.5/3 at 372 F
65/10Sb/25Ag at 451
Alloys at 460:
40Sn/60Pb and 97Sn/3Sb.
Perhaps the flux was made for 460, but what is the solder???
Metalman will tell us the MP. or E point.
Yah, dross in a pot and such. In a pot, you have to skim the dross, otherwise the dip process will go to heck, the dross kills the surface of the component by getting in the way. Why would one expect this to not happen with an oxidised solder wire?anatech said:You do realize the oxides float on the surface to be cleaned later don't you?
-Chris
Peter Daniel said:It seems to me that the easiest way to compare how different type of solder influences the sound would be creating test interconnects made from solder wire and listening to them in a given system. Anybody tried it yet?
Resistance would be too confounding.
Hi Peter..did you get a chance to use that wire I sent you?
Cheers, John
Hi jneutron,
I'll give cleaning the solder a go with my oldest, most horrible stuff. So far the oxides just end up in the flux on the surface. After cleaning everything is smooth and well formed. Cleaning the flux always occurs.
Ever willing to try it and see.
-Chris
I have to admit I always clean the compnent lead and soldering location (board or terminal).
I'll give cleaning the solder a go with my oldest, most horrible stuff. So far the oxides just end up in the flux on the surface. After cleaning everything is smooth and well formed. Cleaning the flux always occurs.
Ever willing to try it and see.
-Chris
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