So much for alloys, so let's go on with fluxes?
I think all previous threads on solder has focussed on the actual alloy, and so did this thread for a start. However, it has now interestingly started to mention what we often ignore, the flux. Not taht we can choose the flux separately, but for the same alloy, there might still be a choice of fluxes by choosing manufacturer or even several variants available from the same manufacturer. So what are the opinions on what type of flux are best (this might perhaps depend on the actual alloy)? Also, while multiple cores of flux migth semm better than one or a few, that is pure speculation until tested.
For instance, I have an old roll of noname tin-lead solder, don't even know if it is 37 % or 40 %, which works fairly well. It melts easily and wets well. I decided I wanted to at least try going lead free and bougth some Multicore Sn/Ag/Cu. However, I find it very difficult to use, and it doesn't seem to wet well. But is this due to the alloy composition, or the somewhat higher melting temperaure, or is it because of the flux, which I think was supposed to be more environmental friendly? I simply don't know. Fact texts often tell a lot about the alloys and very little about the fluxes.
Edit, additional note on silver:
It has been hinted at, but should perhaps be emphasised again. While most discussions on silver solders focus on the disputed issue of sonic improvements, there is a technical benefit, which EC hinted at, that if you solder silver plated things, you will get a migration of silver into the solder joint. A small amount of silver in the solder will prevent this.
I think all previous threads on solder has focussed on the actual alloy, and so did this thread for a start. However, it has now interestingly started to mention what we often ignore, the flux. Not taht we can choose the flux separately, but for the same alloy, there might still be a choice of fluxes by choosing manufacturer or even several variants available from the same manufacturer. So what are the opinions on what type of flux are best (this might perhaps depend on the actual alloy)? Also, while multiple cores of flux migth semm better than one or a few, that is pure speculation until tested.
For instance, I have an old roll of noname tin-lead solder, don't even know if it is 37 % or 40 %, which works fairly well. It melts easily and wets well. I decided I wanted to at least try going lead free and bougth some Multicore Sn/Ag/Cu. However, I find it very difficult to use, and it doesn't seem to wet well. But is this due to the alloy composition, or the somewhat higher melting temperaure, or is it because of the flux, which I think was supposed to be more environmental friendly? I simply don't know. Fact texts often tell a lot about the alloys and very little about the fluxes.
Edit, additional note on silver:
It has been hinted at, but should perhaps be emphasised again. While most discussions on silver solders focus on the disputed issue of sonic improvements, there is a technical benefit, which EC hinted at, that if you solder silver plated things, you will get a migration of silver into the solder joint. A small amount of silver in the solder will prevent this.
Hi Christer,
Flux and solder alloy are very important. I have tested various water soluble fluxes over the years and have not found one that I like.
I also find that working on older boards is helped by adding solder, then desoldering. A little flux and wick and the pad is clean. Lacquer thinner will clean all remaining residue and the area looks like new. This works especially well with smt parts, I use a solder poker and additional heat to remove the part.
Yup, I really do all that.
-Chris
Flux and solder alloy are very important. I have tested various water soluble fluxes over the years and have not found one that I like.
I also find that working on older boards is helped by adding solder, then desoldering. A little flux and wick and the pad is clean. Lacquer thinner will clean all remaining residue and the area looks like new. This works especially well with smt parts, I use a solder poker and additional heat to remove the part.
Yup, I really do all that.
-Chris
The solder I have tried is the Multicore 96SC using Ecosol 105 rosin-free flux.
http://www.anglia.com/product_guide/solder/698.pdf
Any flux experts having any opinions on that flux?
From a health point of view I do prefer, if possible, to stay away from rosin-based fluxes, since they are nowadays consider hazardous even in small doses, and I do have problem with the smoke from them.
http://www.anglia.com/product_guide/solder/698.pdf
Any flux experts having any opinions on that flux?
From a health point of view I do prefer, if possible, to stay away from rosin-based fluxes, since they are nowadays consider hazardous even in small doses, and I do have problem with the smoke from them.
Hi Christer,
I've already spent in excess of thirty years breathing in that stuff. They do make fume extractor / filter units. Given what other chemicals you are releasing with heat, you may want to consider this.
I may consider it too, but there are too many things on my bench already.
-Chris
I've already spent in excess of thirty years breathing in that stuff. They do make fume extractor / filter units. Given what other chemicals you are releasing with heat, you may want to consider this.
I may consider it too, but there are too many things on my bench already.
-Chris
As a cub engineer years ago at my first employer, I watched highly trained and experienced "solder ladies" doing the most critical "hi-rel" military and aerospace assembly work. I wanted to learn the best assembly techniques for my home projects since I rarely got to touch an iron myself at work. I was surprised at how much flux they squirted on. But they made the best looking solder joints - they had to because stern-looking QC inspectors with magnifying glasses were hoping to find the least little defect. I learned not to skimp on flux from watching them.
I use a needle tip dispenser for applying additional liquid flux. I add a tiny drop to most point-to-point joints before soldering, and I think it helps a lot.
I use a needle tip dispenser for applying additional liquid flux. I add a tiny drop to most point-to-point joints before soldering, and I think it helps a lot.
anatech said:
Yes I know, just a fan and a pipe to somewhere else would help. However, since I live in an overcrowded flat and hardly even have the space for even a semi-permanent workbench for electronics, it is probably not a good solution in my case. I don't solder that often, though, compared to those of you who are professionals.
I remember when I was young and uesd to take apart old stuff from the 50s and 60s to salvage parts. That was solder that smoked and smelled very funny, like bad perfume.
Brian Beck said:
Yes, maybe that is the trick, to use extra flux. I remember my father doing that when soldering non-electronics stuff, but have never tried it for electronics. Maybe I should try and see if my lead free solder works better then. So, what type of flux to use for that purpose?
Not related to this thread, but since you mentioned soldering ladies, I once heard a story about one of those working at Ericsson. This was at a time when at least some components or boards were hand soldered. She was mounting transistors of the type with small metal cans and an orientation tab, and had a drawing of how the components were to be placed on the board. After having assembled quite a number of boards, she suddenly realized she had got the tab of those littel metal cans pointing in the wrong direction. After some initial worries, she found the obvious solution. If she twisted them 180 degrees, the tab would point as indicated on the drawing.
Thanks Brian.
It seems my local supplier has two types, both actually Kester, although none of them seems to be the one you use. One ot them, TSF-6502, is extremely expensive and only lasts 6 months even when stored in fridge. The other, SP44, is much cheaper, in paste form, and seems to last at least 3 years without having to be stored in a fridge. I might try that one.
It seems my local supplier has two types, both actually Kester, although none of them seems to be the one you use. One ot them, TSF-6502, is extremely expensive and only lasts 6 months even when stored in fridge. The other, SP44, is much cheaper, in paste form, and seems to last at least 3 years without having to be stored in a fridge. I might try that one.
any feedback on this solder: http://www.alphametals.com/products/product.asp?ID=Plus
Please have a look at the datasheet. The solder I'm looking at is 96.5Sn/3Ag/0.5Cu. I'm hoping to use it for general DIY electronics using through-hole parts.
Thank you.
Please have a look at the datasheet. The solder I'm looking at is 96.5Sn/3Ag/0.5Cu. I'm hoping to use it for general DIY electronics using through-hole parts.
Thank you.
Snorkeling
I am more concerned about these fumes than I used to be. I actually don't feel very good if I ever allow myself to sniff these fumes. So I made a “Solder Snorkel” at my wife’s insistence, and I’m glad I did. I bought a sheet of Plexiglas and cut it to fit the width of my lab window. I made a hole of about 5” in diameter, and mounted a strong AC-powered box fan (like you’d use in an electronics chassis) over the hole. I used, of all things, a toilet flange and some other odd parts to mate the fan to clothes dryer ducting. The fan is faced to blow outside. The ducting is about 5” in diameter and is made of that aluminized plastic film with a “slinky” coil spring form. I got about 25 feet of the ducting. It collapses to a very short length. If anyone cares, I can snap a picture.
I place the assembly into the window, and slide the operable part of the window against the Plexiglas sheet to hold it in place and to seal in the room air. I then maneuver the other end of the duct to wherever in the room I’m doing soldering (my projects are all over the place). I admit I don’t use it if I’m just doing a quick job (I hold my breath), but when I do heavy assembly work, I stretch the duct out and turn it on. I set the open end of the duct on the table nearby (usually behind) the project and it does a surprisingly good job of sucking the fumes into the duct and out of the room. In my prior house’s workshop, I had placed hooks in the ceiling where I could hang the snorkel duct over the areas where I would solder. In that lab I didn’t use this window fan assembly, because I had a through-the-wall Broan ventilation fan. I made an adapter to fit the dryer ducting to the faceplate of this fan. Same idea. It’s not always convenient, but I think it’s worth the effort.
I am more concerned about these fumes than I used to be. I actually don't feel very good if I ever allow myself to sniff these fumes. So I made a “Solder Snorkel” at my wife’s insistence, and I’m glad I did. I bought a sheet of Plexiglas and cut it to fit the width of my lab window. I made a hole of about 5” in diameter, and mounted a strong AC-powered box fan (like you’d use in an electronics chassis) over the hole. I used, of all things, a toilet flange and some other odd parts to mate the fan to clothes dryer ducting. The fan is faced to blow outside. The ducting is about 5” in diameter and is made of that aluminized plastic film with a “slinky” coil spring form. I got about 25 feet of the ducting. It collapses to a very short length. If anyone cares, I can snap a picture.
I place the assembly into the window, and slide the operable part of the window against the Plexiglas sheet to hold it in place and to seal in the room air. I then maneuver the other end of the duct to wherever in the room I’m doing soldering (my projects are all over the place). I admit I don’t use it if I’m just doing a quick job (I hold my breath), but when I do heavy assembly work, I stretch the duct out and turn it on. I set the open end of the duct on the table nearby (usually behind) the project and it does a surprisingly good job of sucking the fumes into the duct and out of the room. In my prior house’s workshop, I had placed hooks in the ceiling where I could hang the snorkel duct over the areas where I would solder. In that lab I didn’t use this window fan assembly, because I had a through-the-wall Broan ventilation fan. I made an adapter to fit the dryer ducting to the faceplate of this fan. Same idea. It’s not always convenient, but I think it’s worth the effort.
In response to the RatShack solder being poo; I disagree.
My very first electronics project of any kind was three AMP1-B kits from 41hz.com. Obviously since this was my first project; it was also the first time I ever did SMD work. Each kit took me about 5 hours of work to complete. I finished all three kits without a single problem, I never even did any safety testing after they were done, I just powered them up. Guess what, all three worked perfect the first time.
Here is a list of my SMD work tools.
1) RatShack silver bearing solder
2) RatShack Tub-O-Flux
3) Cheap Bic lighter to melt flux
4) Fine tipped paint brush to apply flux
5) $6 30w solder iron with standard tip
6) Old pair of reading glasses for slight magnification
7) Pair of tweezers
I'm sure even using "good" solder the supplies above would not be the first choice of a pro doing SMD work. If there was anything wrong with the RatShack solder I don't think a complete novice could have had such success the very first time.
I'm definitely not trying to promote said company here, but I think its foolish to say that something is junk just because A) its cheap, and B) it comes from a less than respectable company.
My very first electronics project of any kind was three AMP1-B kits from 41hz.com. Obviously since this was my first project; it was also the first time I ever did SMD work. Each kit took me about 5 hours of work to complete. I finished all three kits without a single problem, I never even did any safety testing after they were done, I just powered them up. Guess what, all three worked perfect the first time.
Here is a list of my SMD work tools.
1) RatShack silver bearing solder
2) RatShack Tub-O-Flux
3) Cheap Bic lighter to melt flux
4) Fine tipped paint brush to apply flux
5) $6 30w solder iron with standard tip
6) Old pair of reading glasses for slight magnification
7) Pair of tweezers
I'm sure even using "good" solder the supplies above would not be the first choice of a pro doing SMD work. If there was anything wrong with the RatShack solder I don't think a complete novice could have had such success the very first time.
I'm definitely not trying to promote said company here, but I think its foolish to say that something is junk just because A) its cheap, and B) it comes from a less than respectable company.
Hi theAnonymous1,
I'm glad you completed your projects successfully without creating a fire (lighter and flux) or blowing the smd due to the AC leakage possible with those "irons". Never mind the lack of temperature control. But you did succeed.
Once you have used better equipment and chemicals you may understand. Those of us who do a fair amount of soldering will invest in proper tools and equipment.
Ever notice that your stereo sounds great until you get or hear a better one? I used to laugh at guys with power steering and air conditioning when I drove a wreck as a young lad. Guess what I will not buy a vehicle without these days?
Point of reference.
I can not help but notice that it was you that said ...
-Chris
I'm glad you completed your projects successfully without creating a fire (lighter and flux) or blowing the smd due to the AC leakage possible with those "irons". Never mind the lack of temperature control. But you did succeed.
Once you have used better equipment and chemicals you may understand. Those of us who do a fair amount of soldering will invest in proper tools and equipment.
Ever notice that your stereo sounds great until you get or hear a better one? I used to laugh at guys with power steering and air conditioning when I drove a wreck as a young lad. Guess what I will not buy a vehicle without these days?
Point of reference.
I can not help but notice that it was you that said ...
-Chris
Anon,
My point with Shidio Rake stuff is that you don't know what you are buying. Just look at their shelves... 4 packages of resistors, of the same part number, may look to be from obviously different makers. That tells me that they are buying surplus, low-bidder, etc... Walmare' has better standards.
Mastering any craft is a matter of developing consistent skills... harder to do when you are working with inconsistant materials. In the case of SMT, this is robot work, the cards are stacked against you from the start. Consistent materials/tools help level the playing field. You know, the first pancake never turns out right. Keep changing the batter or the pan; they all turn out bad.
Christer,
I fear we are all still waiting for best Pb-free alloys and fluxes. Barring that, I have found that liquid fluxes, used WITH cored solders, provide the best results. Keep in mind, I make sure that both both fluxes are of the same family or chemistry.
I suspect the best flux developed for Pb-free solder will kill more people than lead in the environment.
My point with Shidio Rake stuff is that you don't know what you are buying. Just look at their shelves... 4 packages of resistors, of the same part number, may look to be from obviously different makers. That tells me that they are buying surplus, low-bidder, etc... Walmare' has better standards.
Mastering any craft is a matter of developing consistent skills... harder to do when you are working with inconsistant materials. In the case of SMT, this is robot work, the cards are stacked against you from the start. Consistent materials/tools help level the playing field. You know, the first pancake never turns out right. Keep changing the batter or the pan; they all turn out bad.
Christer,
I fear we are all still waiting for best Pb-free alloys and fluxes. Barring that, I have found that liquid fluxes, used WITH cored solders, provide the best results. Keep in mind, I make sure that both both fluxes are of the same family or chemistry.
I suspect the best flux developed for Pb-free solder will kill more people than lead in the environment.
Well, I have no point of reference to compare the aforementioned solder as its the only thing I have ever used. As far as my point of reference for audio equipment goes; I can only compare my
ghetto SMD work AMP1-B's to retail garbage I have owned in the past. Not a big surprise which sounds better.
I really can't imagine if I had used better equipment and solder that it would have had any effect on the sound of the amps. All the flux cleaned off nicely and the solder joints look just as good or better than some professionally made electronics I have laying around.
I guess I'm still a novice with novice opinions. Maybe someday I will be able to hear a difference in electronics made with better solder, but I sure as h*ll hope not. My finances can't afford that kind of audiophile mentality.
Hi theAnonymous1,
I am not saying one solder sounds better than another type. What I am getting to is the reliability of your connections, and the ease with which you can go about your work.
Stuff doesn't sound good if the connections are cracked or "cold". Excessive heat can damage the devices and weaken the trace - board bond.
The longer you put off getting better equipment will determine how hard you smake yourself in the head once you finally break down and buy those things. I for one refuse to replace the tip on my solder sucker. Man, the work is easier when there is a new tip on that thing.
-Chris
I am not saying one solder sounds better than another type. What I am getting to is the reliability of your connections, and the ease with which you can go about your work.
Stuff doesn't sound good if the connections are cracked or "cold". Excessive heat can damage the devices and weaken the trace - board bond.
The longer you put off getting better equipment will determine how hard you smake yourself in the head once you finally break down and buy those things. I for one refuse to replace the tip on my solder sucker. Man, the work is easier when there is a new tip on that thing.
-Chris
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