That would be expected from the magazine that was in the business to pimp domes and cones. Did they state the frequency range of this ?
How did the people in survey know what their speakers Di was? I like 12 or higher upper midrange up to around 5k than lower opening it up a bit. What speakers would the audio magazine people have with a wide range high Di? none
"That would be expected from the magazine that was in the business to pimp domes and cones."
Q=7 is typical of a 90°x40° horn.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/Radial_Horns1.pdf
Q=7 is typical of a 90°x40° horn.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/Radial_Horns1.pdf
Always seen as near the ideal in listening room (studios, home) ? Tad 4001 horn, Yuichi, etc...
@ Pooh : Q=7 is a high DI according what you favor ?
But as we talk about treble, is not also the quality of the diagphragm and phase plug of these compression drivers ?
looked at 18's sound compression drivers : hey theu have fun with the diag' materials, sandwich of titanium, etc !
@ GDO, not sure those Beyma TPL 150 used so low are so easy for integration when I read the Siziph's work of Lewinski member ! And not so good above 10 K !
Something else as we talk about compression driver for the treble vs others : do the compression driver with narrower patern (vs domes or planars) are also good for normal sized listening room (which is for me between 25 square meters to around 40 square meters) with 3 meters in front of the speakers ? It's ok with such horn at 3 meters only to have a good sound stage (damn the Onkens I listened sounded better at 10 meters, lol, also because the bass !) !
It's very about at iso perimeter in relation to the normal floorstanders : same room, same "low" listening (but vive la dynamique as says Pooh !)
@ Pooh : Q=7 is a high DI according what you favor ?
But as we talk about treble, is not also the quality of the diagphragm and phase plug of these compression drivers ?
looked at 18's sound compression drivers : hey theu have fun with the diag' materials, sandwich of titanium, etc !
@ GDO, not sure those Beyma TPL 150 used so low are so easy for integration when I read the Siziph's work of Lewinski member ! And not so good above 10 K !
Something else as we talk about compression driver for the treble vs others : do the compression driver with narrower patern (vs domes or planars) are also good for normal sized listening room (which is for me between 25 square meters to around 40 square meters) with 3 meters in front of the speakers ? It's ok with such horn at 3 meters only to have a good sound stage (damn the Onkens I listened sounded better at 10 meters, lol, also because the bass !) !
It's very about at iso perimeter in relation to the normal floorstanders : same room, same "low" listening (but vive la dynamique as says Pooh !)
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Yeah 90 is too wide for a small room (at least mine), 40-60 degree with the center axis crossing directly in front of you OR directly to the outside of you - either case above 5K go to a treble horn with around 90 degree constant - that's why I use two horns. I don't know of any single horns that (don't require massive eq) that will have a narrow midrange and low treble and a wider high treble radiation.
www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/pssdm_1.pdf
Pooh, I read again... so you like the narower horn because they give more spl (better air impedance adaptation) or just because less reflexion of the room surfaces towards the listener ?
edit : you answered when I was writting !
Well, the ribbon above the low treble horned > 5K / 8K was not liked ? i.e a 2" compression + ribbon/amt : not enough punchy ??? (for your tastes)
edit : you answered when I was writting !
Well, the ribbon above the low treble horned > 5K / 8K was not liked ? i.e a 2" compression + ribbon/amt : not enough punchy ??? (for your tastes)
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In my experience with many different horns/waveguides the tighter radiation can result in higher articulation, purer sound. Better imaging, depth , realism "goosebump factor". Of course this is a general statement and many other factors can effect the end result. The room is very important - mine is damped first rflection down to 200 Hz and than very diffuse.
I use the modern Celestion 1" drivers for upper treble and find little to complain about. They sound excellent
btw, anyone tried open back compression driver (back-plate removed) with short wave-guide à la Bastanis (now with 1.5" or at least à la Zu Audio in sealed but still with w-g (However they both XO very high, it's more super treble : 7/8 K Hz for the first & 10/12 K for the last) !
And lower they use direct radiator Full range...(a bicone for Zu, though)
And lower they use direct radiator Full range...(a bicone for Zu, though)
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I've done that with mostly poor results.
The best case was with the massive Adamson 10" Kevlar dome compression driver
where I found they sounded better in the horns I had without the front phase plug.
Greets!
No clue, not familiar with them.
Basically, you want the throat to be small relative to the WLs, so naturally the higher the desired frequency, the smaller the throat to not rely only on breakup modes to do the HF, hence a higher XO point. Some 1" and larger drivers rely on the diaphragm surround to help, so is just mixing in random noise, yet some folks [me included] are fine with it, yielding some top end 'air' around instruments, though folks with keen hearing [mainly females IME] of course don't.
Note too that some drivers have internal HF horns, so one must factor this in choosing a driver. For instance, some Altec/GPA drivers start internally with a somewhat smaller throat conically expanding to 1". The ancient 1" Altec 802 drivers has a 5/8" dia. throat and if you mount it to a small 3/4" thick baffle with a nice round over flare [mouth termination] it's a fine 5 kHz-up super tweeter.
In short, to do HF right, then use a Fostex or similar super tweeter horn and save the 1" for lower treble and a larger driver for the critical mids or cheat and use a large driver on a huge horn to cover up to the super tweeter [my preference before the Synergy concept came along].
GM
Hmm, regardless of the driver type, baffle [horn] profile, the goal normally is to keep early reflections behind the listener's ears, so whatever pattern is required to do this while creating a solid horizontal 'center stage' sets the desired pattern [DI] and while it's nice to do this vertically it's not nearly as critical other than as floor, furniture or anything else between the speakers and the listener. Coffee tables can make a mess of the center stage.
Draw the floorplan to scale and find what standard size/pattern horn
GM
You mean create a dipole? Experimented, but not big fan of dipole horns, though can work as a super tweeter. What has worked well though in certain apps is to replace the rear cap with a well stuffed TL to shift horn/driver system tuning lower and in other apps, reducing the rear chamber Vb to push it higher like Altec did with its loading caps.
GM
About the same as achieved by JBL M2, with a power response also falling less than 10dbs...
Geddes' NS15 seem do aim for slightly higher DI, maintaining similar power response...
But i prefer the curves of a Genelec monitor, though the SPL and power handling belong to different galaxies...
Attachments
The compression drivers I have have different response and radiation comparing the front (what horn?!?!) and the the back with the cap off so I'm thinking it could sound weird. I'm guessing in the case of using a small treble horn in front the front will be up 6-10 db over the back radiation (measured from back)
If they sell it and people like it maybe it sounds weird enough to like.
If they sell it and people like it maybe it sounds weird enough to like.
Indeed! Some folks [and IIRC at least one boutique speaker manf.] used Altec 802 with rear cover removed with the back of the dome facing forward as a direct radiator. Didn't please me though, guess my extended exposure to large compression horn systems from a young age 'ruined' me for such diffuse presentations.
GM
GM
To me the upside of the dome is the ease of implementation. It has a flatter response, and is easier to pair with a cone, with a simple passive filter.
They also are east to make sound "polite".
I don't like polite, I like dynamic.
A compression driver is much harder to get right. It needs a ton of EQ to get flat, it can be harsh if not made correctly, and it depends as much on the horn, as it does itself.
A compression driver is much more dynamic, lively, and real sounding to me.
When done right.
Ribbon's can be good, but can also go towards the polite side. For some reason the builders that I have heard, have not implemented them in a fashion that is generally favorable to me.
They also are east to make sound "polite".
I don't like polite, I like dynamic.
A compression driver is much harder to get right. It needs a ton of EQ to get flat, it can be harsh if not made correctly, and it depends as much on the horn, as it does itself.
A compression driver is much more dynamic, lively, and real sounding to me.
When done right.
Ribbon's can be good, but can also go towards the polite side. For some reason the builders that I have heard, have not implemented them in a fashion that is generally favorable to me.
-yes, this is a major difference between the two. BUT I wouldn't say it sounds more realistic (at lower spl's), rather more "forward" - which to me is less realistic. (..and of course the waveguide's contribution does the same.) For the compression driver itself this is often a matter of it's lower freq. extension (used a bit more in that 900-2 kHz region when compared to a dome tweeter) vs. mass (which is usually more than double a dome tweeter) in addition to compression (from the phasing path structure). You can get even more of that "dynamic" sound with a higher mass driver that has a lot of Force. In fact, a lot of designers (and listeners) quite like their mid-bass's up into the 1-2 kHz range for this effect - thinking the compression driver doesn't provide enough "dynamics".
IF however you have a very wide dynamic range (+25 db peaks) and listen loud at a couple of meters (say an average of 85 db at the listening position), then the compression driver will typically "stomp" most tweeters in most designs. In this case it's literally more dynamic - with a wider dynamic range without substantive distortion.
it can sound much more realistic and alive than the typical high end dome. i think the 'forward' statements come from people that try and use a treble compression treble with the inferior cones and direct radiator midrange. this is at all volumes. the rest of the speaker can't keep up and sounds forward in the treble. common sense - if you want the ultimate in realism go fully horn loaded
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