Listen,
It's not my intention to stir up.
Maybe you feel stirred up, but that's your problem then.
All I want to suggest is that in the case of a multi amp system the option of a dedicated linear supply might be worth considering cost (and quality) wise.
What you guys opt for in the end is completely up to you.
It's not my intention to stir up.
Maybe you feel stirred up, but that's your problem then.
All I want to suggest is that in the case of a multi amp system the option of a dedicated linear supply might be worth considering cost (and quality) wise.
What you guys opt for in the end is completely up to you.
no pieter, I believe its your problem, I see you repeat it all over the forum and if you havent noticed that people react to your stiring the pot and adjusted your behaviour by now, that counts as conscious/deliberate IMO
to suggest that a linear supply might be worth considering in this thread at this stage is a bit ignorant imo too, there are measures of it and conversation scattered liberally throughout the thread. the bloody thing starts with it! and only progressed towards considering a switching supply, not the other way around
but there i've bitten, sorry guys
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All this will really get a meaning when you check how the loudspeaker will behave. Have you heard of dynamic compression in loudspeakers, and how the relationship is between voltage sag of amplifier output (because of sudden current demand) and this very dynamic loudspeaker compression?
I guess you've not.
I am not arguing.
I quoted an extract from your previous post where you seemed to be drawing attention to excessive energy use/cost.
I simply gave a reasoned reply to what I consider to be appropriate in relation to your scaremongering.
OK, but how does the loudspeaker deal with power transients (especially bass)?
Correct me if I am wrong, but 10% voltage sag is about - 1dB.
Any speaker will behave pretty much worse than -1 dB (dynamic compression) when bass transients cause that voltage sag.
The measurements earlier in the thread are just part of the story, because loudspeaker behavior is not included.
Correct me if I am wrong, but 10% voltage sag is about - 1dB.
Any speaker will behave pretty much worse than -1 dB (dynamic compression) when bass transients cause that voltage sag.
The measurements earlier in the thread are just part of the story, because loudspeaker behavior is not included.
Does this mean you do see a benefit to using regulated supplies for widebandwidth amplifiers and/or for bass only amplifiers?
Could you explain more fully?
What is this slanging match for?
This is a Power Amplifier Thread.
Various methods of supplying these Power Amplifiers have been discussed. That does not mean that this thread now exists to only consider SMPS to the exclusion of all other supply types.
its because you replied to the words, not the content or what they were replying to, no scaremongering; not in the slightest, to compete with the results we have here for dynamic behaviour, you either need an impossibly HUUUUUUUGE unregulated supply in an ideal world, or a regulated supply. sorry there is no other way to do it and considering the fact hes building 10......
I'd think of bass amplifiers in the first place, and the relative (see post above) benefits concerning compression.
The topic is very complex however.
When regulated supplies are able to eliminate line pollution there might be a wideband benefit.
There is quite some evidence however that non regulated linear supplies sound better in mid and treble. I especially point at the numerous experiments that the people of "Maison de l'Audiophile", think of names like Jean Hiraga, published in the eighties and nineties of last century, and no, technical "development" has not really made these experiments out of date.
Here one can not speak of the dynamics (even if it is old) evidently some people do not know the actual relationship with sound, the dynamics itself, is the volume, the dynamic / time is the definition of any musical instrument.
This is a period that some universities are working on new concepts, right on the audio signals, so again using the power of DSP.
The principle is one. (independant if it is possible or not)
Amplifier is the only one that must modulate the current, not both (Amp & Psu).
Here we are not talking about "Voodo", try to listen to a "crescendo" orchestra, this is enough to feel an enormous difference eg. with dps-600. On this occasion there is no big transformer with capacitors holding.
I talk with others about this, and fast-flowing conversation, so why here we go wrong? a compression has nothing to do. problem is bla..bla.., this yes.
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Andrew, its because of the growing frustration I have with pieter popping his head into threads he has no interest in other than to stir the pot. hes visited the thread several times now and the class D threads among others to throw a grenade, cause a stir, then leave when he gets bored. in fact i've never seen him actually participate in any of the projects he feigns interest in; maybe I havent been around long enough... in this case he suggests that a linear supply is worth considering.....it started with extensive measures of one and again in more detail a bit later in direct comparison to a switcher. the fact hes been here pretty much bang on time any time power supply or amp tests come up and all have been considered more than once, suggests to me he knows very well theyve been considered.
I already have the parts for linear, I considered it at length and took detailed measurements to convince me otherwise.
I have zero problems with people using linear if thats what they want to do, but for highest dynamic performance with multichannel amplifiers; given the results imo its folly. thats my opinion, I can be opinionated; i'm sure you are familiar with opinion?
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Actually all of this sounds very subjective and outdated. These are all claims, not evidence. Can you point out one rational reason why a non-regulated supply will "sound" better than a regulated one?
Let's face it, technology has changed dramatically since the nineties. What makes you confident that the results that you refer to are not influenced by the implementations of these old amplifiers, and that the engineering common sense can be questioned?
I am surprised that "the purely subjective side of the audiophile world" is so strong in the DIY circles. The only difference compared to the consumer side is that we have our own myths.
Subjective listening is the final judgement, provided that there is correlation between scientific thinking, measurements and listening impressions.
thats probably what i'm doing also, depends on what power you are after. most basically as I said involve building another amplifier to power your amplifier. if you are only after 50W you can combine parallel lm317/337 regulators, or use lm317/337 or opamp with high swing as the error amp, with some sort of bipolar power transistor follower, something with high power handling.
to match what we have here though, it would have to have very little capacitance on the output and both the error amp and output transistors would need some pretty serious slew rate. keeping such an amp (the power supply) stable in itself would not be such an easy task. i'm sure it can be done, but there arent many examples of them in DIY for high power; some lowish powered chipamps have simple regulated supplies; so you could start your research there, thats where i've gotten most of my hits when googling
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Wow.. talk of a stir!
Please forgive my lack of knowledge, it was just a simple question from a simple guy who does not understand all the ins and outs of the various PS concepts. The DPS600 mesurements are absolutely stunning, and I can read them. It's crystal clear, SMPS is the way to go, at least for me.
You are right qusp, it's an expensive starting point, but down the line, I may not regret it, and definitely not planning on two massive chassis. The very reason of my participation in this GB is to replace three power amps with just one..
Cheers.
Please forgive my lack of knowledge, it was just a simple question from a simple guy who does not understand all the ins and outs of the various PS concepts. The DPS600 mesurements are absolutely stunning, and I can read them. It's crystal clear, SMPS is the way to go, at least for me.
You are right qusp, it's an expensive starting point, but down the line, I may not regret it, and definitely not planning on two massive chassis. The very reason of my participation in this GB is to replace three power amps with just one..
Cheers.
I'd be inclined to agree with several people here in stating that I don't really think there's a good argument to be made against regulated supplies.
I don't care if it's linear or switch mode, having a regulated supply is extremely advantageous from several perspectives:
1. Line regulation
2. Line noise reduction (including rectifier noise)
3. Load regulation
4. Amplifier efficiency (this can be a very big deal)
I can't think of a single good reason why an unregulated supply would be desirable to provide power to an amplifier, regardless of what part of the audio band we're talking about. If we're talking about guitar tube amps, with tube rectifiers where the power supply sag plays a critical role in the way the amplifiers clips then sure, I can see that being a good thing, but not with an amplifier intended for musical reproduction.
Regards,
Owen
I don't care if it's linear or switch mode, having a regulated supply is extremely advantageous from several perspectives:
1. Line regulation
2. Line noise reduction (including rectifier noise)
3. Load regulation
4. Amplifier efficiency (this can be a very big deal)
I can't think of a single good reason why an unregulated supply would be desirable to provide power to an amplifier, regardless of what part of the audio band we're talking about. If we're talking about guitar tube amps, with tube rectifiers where the power supply sag plays a critical role in the way the amplifiers clips then sure, I can see that being a good thing, but not with an amplifier intended for musical reproduction.
Regards,
Owen