Like this ?? (below?) will I actually hear any difference ? .. both of these are VERY clear amps already.
OS
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HEY - OS....... Ya gotta have a couple of little fires every now and again. You live in the Great Smoky Mountains and we get a lot of tourist that wanna see "Smoky Mountains". Well - that and whiskey stills, "Mountain Men", and maybe a little Bluegrass or County & Western music being played at the local ho-down.
Sooooo - smoke a couple of amps and open up a tourist spot!!
What you got aganst' "mountain men" , we don't wanna waste the woods on them fires when we can use it to make mo' shine. The whisky is good here , Cocke county is VERY active , you can order it to go at a few local restaurants.
OS
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I could do that with my boards by making a new heatshrinked CM. Wire the bases together off the board , snake the cathode of the diode to where one of the bases would of come down normally and heatshrink to whole thing (5 pin face -to- face CM). No board changes , I could sell it as a "magic ultra CM" for 20$
just joking !! Luckily I have 40+ 2sa992's left, most are matched.OS
Pete,
Principle is simple; in a current mirror you want identical transistor action both sides for best results. Yet one device acts as a transistor, the other a diode; so different transfer functions. With this simple addition, one step back from GK's transistor, you force both devices to behave as transistors which should give lower distortion.
Hugh
Principle is simple; in a current mirror you want identical transistor action both sides for best results. Yet one device acts as a transistor, the other a diode; so different transfer functions. With this simple addition, one step back from GK's transistor, you force both devices to behave as transistors which should give lower distortion.
Hugh
I do remember those good old days , (GK - Andy C.
) I tried this before. I will try again , these are much more refined than my first "blameless's" and any improvement will not have to compete with Xover distortion (tmc) or noise .. those SS9014 LTP pairs are virtually noiseless (even on a scope - uV scale). Thanks , hugh .. ya got me thinkin' .. I will show pictures tommorrow (my secret heatshrinked CM). I have to clean my kitchen out .. wifey is MAD
, using HER kitchen to build 12 amps.. She liked my amp (just had to pick the music) !!Another objective observation is the glory of the cap multipliers , the stereo separation is unmatched with a single supply. Most I could measure with the CRO (ripple) was about 2mv p-p at the voltage boards and 1v p-p at the main rails. This shook every object in the room to the floor.
OS
Just curious, since when R21,R22 & C9 as current booststrapping network is better solution than regular current source with one or double BJT's. Is this only a fancy result of simulator measurings or really better choice by listening tests.
So where are now bootstrappes ...
So where are now bootstrappes ...
I like bootstrappes , they are simple. it really is almost a dead tie in the listenability of the 2 amps. the current sourced one just is able to outperform the bootstrapped one by it's physics. This is equates to better highs .. that's what I hear in the "real world".
The 2 amps and the power output boards are the exact same , what better A/B comparison. I am listening to the bootstrap again. to answer your ???
(BELOW ! ) there's the bootstrap ...
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, but the current sourced, TMC'ed blameless's really exceed any "ES" style amp. In other word , the mighty AX blows the "ES" away
... and they sound better than any symasym or even the luxman clone. All these VB's sound better than my discrete OEM receiver (I still have one
Me and a few musician friends (lots of them in pigeon forge , tenn.) listened to the BX's with a variety of music (classic , classic rock , jazz) for hours. they had "strong emotions" and wanted to buy some..
I said "wait !" ... screwed the AX's in and cranked it up AGAIN. WOW !!!
was the response. They were astounded that the same amp could even sound better. I told them these were the idea of a dead english guy (Baxandall) , who had his papers released by another english author (D. Self).
So , as an audiophile , and designer who has built them all (pokemon) , the AX is the "holy grail" .... it's sound won't just give "strong emotions" but will absolutely "knock your socks off".
TBH, these type of comments are what keep me away from threads like this.
From my perspective, it calls into question one of 2 things: the build or design quality of each amp or the credibility of the observer. In the first instance, if there is such a huge difference from one amp to the other, one has to be defective. If the second, perhaps there was some of the previously mentioned moonshine involved and that is what coloured the results.
Another possibility exists, where the fickle on this site are being pandered to.
Having competently built a few different amps myself, I can say that I could detect NO difference between them and the one time I did hear a difference, there was something wrong.
I don't have nutt'n against "Mountain Men" - U misread me. I said that the tourist wanna see the MM's - and the still's etc. as part of the "Smoky Mountain" tourist charm. So - no harm intended - 'n I hope nun was taken.
psudo Mountain Man talk for none - that is correct. Having lived in England as a lad I can do a fair impression of Cockney http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockney - and with 17 Y/O Aussie granddaughter in house I'm fairly good at the "down under" lingo as well.
All intended as good humor - of course!!!
This place is warming up, with Nuns being taken only God knows where..... Goodness, even AndrewT has a bit of humor on this one.....
John, do you honestly think all competent amps sound the same? I find this surprising, I've always noted quite marked differences between them.
C2C, your DNA is spread liberally around, on three continents no less, something to be proud of, mate....
Pete, any feedback on that diode trick?
Hugh
John, do you honestly think all competent amps sound the same? I find this surprising, I've always noted quite marked differences between them.
C2C, your DNA is spread liberally around, on three continents no less, something to be proud of, mate....
Pete, any feedback on that diode trick?
Hugh
Heh-heh - Dad was in the US Air Force - so I was a military brat and traveling from age 7 on up. I served in the US Navy for six years and covered about 1/2 the world - primarily in the Med, Europe and South America. Then I worked as a civilian for the US Air Force and had was set loose to roam just about anywhere in the "free" world. Now I'm happy staying home - it was getting so that everyplace started looking like the same airport terminal and the same hotel and that took the fun out of things. Traveling for personal enjoyment and getting to spend some time where you are at is my idea of having fun.
Me too, I was in the Oz military for 21 years and moved around Asia and Oz. I came from a remote country district in South Australia and have travelled as long as I can remember. I grew sick of it, just want to stay in one place now.... so I relate to your plight.
I bet you can't do a proper Oz accent. Very difficult, they tell me, of course I wouldn't know.
Let's hope Pete comes back to us soon.
Hugh
I bet you can't do a proper Oz accent. Very difficult, they tell me, of course I wouldn't know.
Let's hope Pete comes back to us soon.
Hugh
Yes, I do.
Maybe my hearing is not as keen as it could be. Maybe, if difference did exist, I would consider it too insignificant to listen for.
The fact remains that to date, and with many different amp designs to listen too (including a fairly high distortion single ended SS with NO 'boutique' parts) I have yet to discern a notable difference.
I don't want to discount that some can not hear differences , but they do exist.
My ears are in the mountains all the time , I can hear a bear moving a mile away or earthworms pullin' into the holes ahead of where I can walk. 16kHz is a tone to me 18k+ is a "presence", I still have much of my 25 year old hearing intact.
I did test both amps electrically in the real world , squarewaves and large signal linearity ... neither is defective. Both sound totally fine in the living room. Long term listening with each shows subtle differences , the CCS w/tmc will exhibit better soundstage and clarity with HQ classical and movie sountracks at high volumes. The bootstrapped CS's sound better , by a small margin with rock and pop. This is subjective , these are my ears... but there is a difference.
I do not believe in "bybee quantum purifiers" , but I do believe in what I can see. Simulate Hughs diode , or TMC , or my 2.2k tail resistance , or even the FFT spectrum of CCS vs. bootstrap. LT predicts different ratio's of H2/3/5/7/9. These , even at -100db levels will determine the character of the amp ... which by the way .. CAN be heard. I would not sqaunder any "credibility" if I did not actually see or hear any changes. With my amp , you can be assured nothing else changes (OPS , PS , all the same for every test.)
All tests were done @ 17mv .27R/62ma... same bias. 20 or more people could hear the differences (some took preference to the bootstrap) , but could hear a difference. Not much can go wrong with a "blameless" , so a defective amp is out of the question.
I have a list of changes that fall into that category , it is a economical vs. "impact" choice. Matched / thermally coupled input pairs and current mirrors are both cheap and make for better sound. On the other hand ...silver wire , while better , will not make a world of difference. If you add too many "insignificant" poor design decisions together you will most likely create a significant (audible) one.
Edit: john .. build a "blameless" , or use one you have , listen for the difference between standard miller comp. and TMC. This was a big enough change even untrained ears could discern. Do this test at 10ma bias (bad bias) and it makes the TMC amp sound as it would at 80ma (proper bias). Something very beneficial must be happening , why not add a.50c cap and .02c to make this happen ??
OS
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You were doing well until this part:
Seriously!
OS, carry on with your efforts. I'll keep my distance and my comments to myself.
Seriously!
OS, carry on with your efforts. I'll keep my distance and my comments to myself.
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