LOL. Yes, you got me, I should have looked at HiFiCompass. The peak around 800 Hertz is clearly a cavity thing, a bit like a tiny sealed box. A quick glance they recommend 2KHz 2nd order LR (honestly don't like LR) and a possible 3KHz first order? But if electrical 1st order (not Butterworth) down -6dB (and not Butterworth -3dB, also a don't like, for very different reasons ), this is doable and that would be rare for such a compact ribbon tweeter. But I would then add the LC null (like I used in the Elsinores) and carefully adjust its Q so that around 1500Hz it will go high order and steep down at 800Hz, and it looks like it would be good. No doubt an interesting tweeter and worthwhile to keep in mind, thanks.
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Strongly considering making an order with purify.. I will say though that (and I'm sure I'm not alone) the value proposition for me and I'm sure several of those of us with pre-existing elsinores is that we could use the same existing box and waveguide/tweeter and many of the crossover components.. If wholesale other changes to the box, etc are made this then no longer makes sense from an upgrade perspective as everything is being done from scratch at new entire cost...
Joe I am confirming that these current discussions are largely theoretical and not actually on the horizon for this current ULD model?
Also, FYI shipping to Canada is being quoted at 1274 DKK or 196 USD. I can't imagine that shipping from the US to CAD would be less than 100-150 so the difference for me would be marginal vs ordering from Madisound, etc I'd expect.
Joe I am confirming that these current discussions are largely theoretical and not actually on the horizon for this current ULD model?
Also, FYI shipping to Canada is being quoted at 1274 DKK or 196 USD. I can't imagine that shipping from the US to CAD would be less than 100-150 so the difference for me would be marginal vs ordering from Madisound, etc I'd expect.
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It would all change with a waveguide.
(..and the distortion would get a bit better a bit lower in freq.)
cabinet construction is often the giving up factor
What could be made is a stacking of glued ayers à la Wesayso or Steve maning cabinets. The layer is made by a CNC cut but one can also provide a router guide for the enthusiast : so the guide cuted from CNC for the enthusiast to follow the layer guide with its manual router !
So the standalone layer guide rib could be sold as the wave guide and sent or the file provided to a CNC cutting provider (but what are doing the drivers companies at not providing such services ??? We are in the XXI° century in a dematerialized world where you can upload a pcb to a founder being a simple enthusiast, no ?).
That said Proac makes normal looking speaker that sound good. I personally like Avalon cabinet style as Sonus Faber round one... but hard to do from a diying perspective.
What could be made is a stacking of glued ayers à la Wesayso or Steve maning cabinets. The layer is made by a CNC cut but one can also provide a router guide for the enthusiast : so the guide cuted from CNC for the enthusiast to follow the layer guide with its manual router !
So the standalone layer guide rib could be sold as the wave guide and sent or the file provided to a CNC cutting provider (but what are doing the drivers companies at not providing such services ??? We are in the XXI° century in a dematerialized world where you can upload a pcb to a founder being a simple enthusiast, no ?).
That said Proac makes normal looking speaker that sound good. I personally like Avalon cabinet style as Sonus Faber round one... but hard to do from a diying perspective.
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Roundovers of that size are more cosmetic than anything else.
It has been shown that to be effective they need to be moore like 3-4”
dave
I've had to finish quite a bit of end-grain MDF and it is a nightmare to sand flat because the middle of the board is softer than the outer especially on the thicker sheets and you end up with a ripple. A veneer over the top would work though (am not familiar with the two projects of which you speak).
diyiggy, having some sort of process to make the cabinets would be the best way I think. Woodgears.ca, Matthias Wandell, has a cool program called the big print program. The goal of the program is to be able to print PDFs and have them sized accurately and calibrated to your printer. I think that one could print the shape they need, and use that to make a template. The stacked MDF method seems quite expensive.
I think a few braces and some bendable plywood could be an option. I know that the end grain of MDF is also something that has to be dealt with if doing the stacked method
What would be cool is a template for braces and then another template for clamping blocks to clamp the sides of the cabinet. The template would assume that you used however many pieces of say half inch bendable plywood, 1/8 in Hardie board etc. I know that people use ratchet straps for simpler curves.
Now the hard part is to make sure that this cabinet will acoustically resemble what Joe designed. Although the cabinet looks like a standard box, from reading previous posts in this thread, he has given a lot of thought into designing a simple to build cabinet that works as good as possible acoustically.
Just brainstorming but let me know if you think any of this seems like a good idea. Also voice to text, sorry. LOL
I think a few braces and some bendable plywood could be an option. I know that the end grain of MDF is also something that has to be dealt with if doing the stacked method
What would be cool is a template for braces and then another template for clamping blocks to clamp the sides of the cabinet. The template would assume that you used however many pieces of say half inch bendable plywood, 1/8 in Hardie board etc. I know that people use ratchet straps for simpler curves.
Now the hard part is to make sure that this cabinet will acoustically resemble what Joe designed. Although the cabinet looks like a standard box, from reading previous posts in this thread, he has given a lot of thought into designing a simple to build cabinet that works as good as possible acoustically.
Just brainstorming but let me know if you think any of this seems like a good idea. Also voice to text, sorry. LOL
Joe’s (quite basic) enclosure is indeed done so that the most people can access it (cost is inevitable), and so we have a LCD rectangulatr box made of MDF.
For those with the skills, with better materials, design and execution that takes care of more of the details would undoubtedly take performance higher. Care must be taken or the XO will need tweaking.
dave
Right. But I have to use MDF because people come around here to have a listen to what can be done. What they can do themselves, exactly what they are hearing!
Sure, I could do things and with something other than MDF, but I don't have the luxury. Most of those who come here need to hear what the plain vanilla MDF Elsinores sound like or else it wouldn't be fair. That is why yesterday I posted that I was under restraints that others here are not.
But I am happy to announce that even if you do the plain vanilla version MDF box as documented, they don't perform because they are made of MDF. But they do perform nevertheless!
BTW, when people come here, I just ask what kind of music they like. Then I keep playing music, I never ask the question that should never be asked: "What do you think?" No, I just keep playing music without any pressure. Eventually, they tell me. Sometimes it is just a gasp that tells it all. And often it is only seconds into the first track. I have lost count of people that have said they have never heard this in a store or show. But I also can say "You can build these and build a good system around them, get a better amplifier and source, but start here, but no pressure from me."
Think about it, I am stuck with MDF and if I am not satisfied, then what do you think? Just dwell on that for a moment. I am not crying. Do I think I am listening to a second-rate version? Nope, I just have a wry smile on my face... maybe sometimes a bit more than that.
If they were to be made commercially? That would be entirely different. I could use what I like. That's just the way things are. OK?
So enjoy them.
Cheers, Joe
Sure, I could do things and with something other than MDF, but I don't have the luxury. Most of those who come here need to hear what the plain vanilla MDF Elsinores sound like or else it wouldn't be fair. That is why yesterday I posted that I was under restraints that others here are not.
But I am happy to announce that even if you do the plain vanilla version MDF box as documented, they don't perform because they are made of MDF. But they do perform nevertheless!
BTW, when people come here, I just ask what kind of music they like. Then I keep playing music, I never ask the question that should never be asked: "What do you think?" No, I just keep playing music without any pressure. Eventually, they tell me. Sometimes it is just a gasp that tells it all. And often it is only seconds into the first track. I have lost count of people that have said they have never heard this in a store or show. But I also can say "You can build these and build a good system around them, get a better amplifier and source, but start here, but no pressure from me."
Think about it, I am stuck with MDF and if I am not satisfied, then what do you think? Just dwell on that for a moment. I am not crying. Do I think I am listening to a second-rate version? Nope, I just have a wry smile on my face... maybe sometimes a bit more than that.
If they were to be made commercially? That would be entirely different. I could use what I like. That's just the way things are. OK?
So enjoy them.
Cheers, Joe
MDF is a funny kind of material. It sometimes gets a bad name by some. But is it as bad as that?
Take a sheet of MDF of size and you can see that it will ring (resonate). But so will most sheets of other materials. Now cut the sheet in half and glue it together so that it is half the area and double the thickness. Has anything changed? Well, the mass (assuming no loss in the cutting) is about the same. But now knock it and it's behaving quite a bit differently. Now repeat the exercise, and you get more of the same, or maybe that should say, less of the same. You end up with a block or shape that becomes rather more dead. On top of that, make it into irregular shapes, something like triangles, even more so. Shaping is the key.
Exercise: Cut two MDF sheets to it with irregular or different shapes built into them, even cut holes in it, round holes in one, square holes in the other, and also make the two MDF thicknesses different, but both still significant thicknesses. Bond them together with a generous amount of glue, and what do you have? You have in fact got the front panel of the Elsinores. Now for good measure, add a 25mm block behind where the tweeter goes, because that is where you want it to be especially dead.
Knock almost anywhere on the front panel, and it will be pretty dead. Shaping MDF and using generous amounts of it, and it actually works quite well. Could you use other materials? Sure, but don't change the construction.
Of course, I would not use a lighter by weight material than MDF. Use plywood or hardwoods by all means, even combine them. Just follow the basic rules and you won't go wrong.
What about the rest of the box? Yes, that is important too, but nowhere near as much as the front panel. Think of the entire frontal area of the front panel is facing you, in terms of the radiating area, there is no difference between the driver cones (and surrounds because they contribute too) and that part of the box in terms of what the ear hears. So you want the drivers to make sound and no sound from the front panel. And you don't want the drivers to move relative to that front area. Think of camera shake in reverse.
There is a thing known as the Haas effect (or precedence), if the delay is long enough in time and the lower amplitude also helps, then the ear can differentiate the direct sound with indirect sound. Listen to an orchestra in a hall and some of the sound will be direct, but quite a lot of sound will arrive by reflections. But here the reflections will not ruin the effect and can even enhance it, this again is due to the Hass effect. It even works in smaller situations but is a little more critical. But rear panels and side panels tend to radiate into the room in such a way to give Hass effect a chance to work. It doesn't mean you want lively panels at all, you still want to do a good job. You still want them braced etc, but it is not quite as critical as the front panel. But what comes off the front panel will have precedence or anything else coming from the box.
(BTW, my late father was both a recording and acoustics engineer.)
So there you have in a few words the rough philosophy behind the Elsinore boxes. Many have told me that they didn't quite realise the size and effort to make the boxes until they got underway. Not a surprise, but once started, you gotta finish, right?
One final thought, edge mass loading of a panel does not dampen it much. That means side panels do not help panels that are connected at right angles to them.
I better get off my soapbox now. It's morning here and the sun is shining and the day has just started.
Take a sheet of MDF of size and you can see that it will ring (resonate). But so will most sheets of other materials. Now cut the sheet in half and glue it together so that it is half the area and double the thickness. Has anything changed? Well, the mass (assuming no loss in the cutting) is about the same. But now knock it and it's behaving quite a bit differently. Now repeat the exercise, and you get more of the same, or maybe that should say, less of the same. You end up with a block or shape that becomes rather more dead. On top of that, make it into irregular shapes, something like triangles, even more so. Shaping is the key.
Exercise: Cut two MDF sheets to it with irregular or different shapes built into them, even cut holes in it, round holes in one, square holes in the other, and also make the two MDF thicknesses different, but both still significant thicknesses. Bond them together with a generous amount of glue, and what do you have? You have in fact got the front panel of the Elsinores. Now for good measure, add a 25mm block behind where the tweeter goes, because that is where you want it to be especially dead.
Knock almost anywhere on the front panel, and it will be pretty dead. Shaping MDF and using generous amounts of it, and it actually works quite well. Could you use other materials? Sure, but don't change the construction.
Of course, I would not use a lighter by weight material than MDF. Use plywood or hardwoods by all means, even combine them. Just follow the basic rules and you won't go wrong.
What about the rest of the box? Yes, that is important too, but nowhere near as much as the front panel. Think of the entire frontal area of the front panel is facing you, in terms of the radiating area, there is no difference between the driver cones (and surrounds because they contribute too) and that part of the box in terms of what the ear hears. So you want the drivers to make sound and no sound from the front panel. And you don't want the drivers to move relative to that front area. Think of camera shake in reverse.
There is a thing known as the Haas effect (or precedence), if the delay is long enough in time and the lower amplitude also helps, then the ear can differentiate the direct sound with indirect sound. Listen to an orchestra in a hall and some of the sound will be direct, but quite a lot of sound will arrive by reflections. But here the reflections will not ruin the effect and can even enhance it, this again is due to the Hass effect. It even works in smaller situations but is a little more critical. But rear panels and side panels tend to radiate into the room in such a way to give Hass effect a chance to work. It doesn't mean you want lively panels at all, you still want to do a good job. You still want them braced etc, but it is not quite as critical as the front panel. But what comes off the front panel will have precedence or anything else coming from the box.
(BTW, my late father was both a recording and acoustics engineer.)
So there you have in a few words the rough philosophy behind the Elsinore boxes. Many have told me that they didn't quite realise the size and effort to make the boxes until they got underway. Not a surprise, but once started, you gotta finish, right?
One final thought, edge mass loading of a panel does not dampen it much. That means side panels do not help panels that are connected at right angles to them.
I better get off my soapbox now. It's morning here and the sun is shining and the day has just started.
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This getting cabinets built in Australia/ NSW isn't easy and perhaps for others who haven't a full wood shop .
What about getting cabinet plans CAD files to these guys and they can have an option or 2 ready Baltic Birch plywood sounds good to me
Wooddiy – combinaison de haut parleur Double pouce 6.5, en contreplaque de bouleau, pour SCAN talk, R2904/700005 12W/4631G00 18W/8531G00, trois voies | AliExpress
What about getting cabinet plans CAD files to these guys and they can have an option or 2 ready Baltic Birch plywood sounds good to me
Wooddiy – combinaison de haut parleur Double pouce 6.5, en contreplaque de bouleau, pour SCAN talk, R2904/700005 12W/4631G00 18W/8531G00, trois voies | AliExpress
On establishing that they can all be used that way.It would all change with a waveguide.
Dave and you are really saying the same thing when you think about it. Even though you are tending to either side, I think it's the practical details that will make the decision in the end.
My understanding is that MDF is 0.6Kg per liter volume.
In the case of the Elsinore boxes 'shaping' of the materials used and the basic techniques involved (and for DIY purposes), I would think matching density ver volume or better than MDF, should work nicely. There is no voodoo stuff going on. There will never be a perfect box, but a good one is what is needed, and then concentrate on other stuff that matters just as much.
In the case of the Elsinore boxes 'shaping' of the materials used and the basic techniques involved (and for DIY purposes), I would think matching density ver volume or better than MDF, should work nicely. There is no voodoo stuff going on. There will never be a perfect box, but a good one is what is needed, and then concentrate on other stuff that matters just as much.