A second BIB project
Given the resounding success of my Neofone BIB I'm convinced of the concept of a BIB.
The Neofone sounds really good but it's a wide-range unit, I'd like to try a real full-range unit and so have been looking through the thread again.
The options I've come up with are (prices are UK Wilmslow Audio):
1. Fostex FE 168ES, which will drop into the current cabinet although not optimum. £110 each plus VAT. No need to build a new cabinet unless I like it and want to go for an optimum enclosure later.
2. Fostex FE 206E, which needs a cabinet 86" tall. £68 each plus VAT
3. Fostex FF 165K, which needs a cabinet 84" tall. £48.51 each plus VAT
I can accommodate these cabinets in my room without any domestic upset at the size.
My only questions are:
Some comment has been made that my Neofone BIB at 62" tall may be not tall enough for my room, which is 94" high, so...
Q1. Is this ceiling high enough for the taller options or will the top of the speaker be too close to the ceiling for options 2 and 3?
Q2. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
The room is 22' x 12', the speakers fire down the 22' length and are positioned in the corners. Music is rock, soul, pop and easy listening type stuff. No classical, jazz or opera etc.
Ta
Given the resounding success of my Neofone BIB I'm convinced of the concept of a BIB.
The Neofone sounds really good but it's a wide-range unit, I'd like to try a real full-range unit and so have been looking through the thread again.
The options I've come up with are (prices are UK Wilmslow Audio):
1. Fostex FE 168ES, which will drop into the current cabinet although not optimum. £110 each plus VAT. No need to build a new cabinet unless I like it and want to go for an optimum enclosure later.
2. Fostex FE 206E, which needs a cabinet 86" tall. £68 each plus VAT
3. Fostex FF 165K, which needs a cabinet 84" tall. £48.51 each plus VAT
I can accommodate these cabinets in my room without any domestic upset at the size.
My only questions are:
Some comment has been made that my Neofone BIB at 62" tall may be not tall enough for my room, which is 94" high, so...
Q1. Is this ceiling high enough for the taller options or will the top of the speaker be too close to the ceiling for options 2 and 3?
Q2. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
The room is 22' x 12', the speakers fire down the 22' length and are positioned in the corners. Music is rock, soul, pop and easy listening type stuff. No classical, jazz or opera etc.
Ta
Brain, I'm pretty happy with my FE168ESigma BIBs!
Nice soundstage, great bass and... not tall enough.
FF165K is a great choice for the money... I don't have any experience with it but if you'll search in the forums you will see that it's one of the best choices for a BIB. And it's cheap...
But, maybe you will need a super tweeter with it. It's a wide range speaker, like the FE206E... or FE207E which is better for a BIB.
I would choose the FE168ESigma or FE167E.... you can experiment with the latter ( EnABL etc ) or order it directly from Dave (Planet10) ready to solder .
Nice soundstage, great bass and... not tall enough.
FF165K is a great choice for the money... I don't have any experience with it but if you'll search in the forums you will see that it's one of the best choices for a BIB. And it's cheap...
But, maybe you will need a super tweeter with it. It's a wide range speaker, like the FE206E... or FE207E which is better for a BIB.
I would choose the FE168ESigma or FE167E.... you can experiment with the latter ( EnABL etc ) or order it directly from Dave (Planet10) ready to solder .
myster_maze said:Brain, I'm pretty happy with my FE168ESigma BIBs!
Nice soundstage, great bass and... not tall enough.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1659926#post1659926
GM
Got my Veravox BiB's finsihed a while ago
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hi,
here's a video of my BIB's, they've got Omnes BB 3.01 3-inch drivers in an expanded polystyrene + painter's tape cabinet. Amp6-BASIC and SMPS powered.
http://vimeo.com/2355501
here's a video of my BIB's, they've got Omnes BB 3.01 3-inch drivers in an expanded polystyrene + painter's tape cabinet. Amp6-BASIC and SMPS powered.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://vimeo.com/2355501
Thanks for the advice, GM. And I'm moving to a house with taller ceiling.GM said:
I have a lot of serious problems to solve in the next days, weeks, months, ... for my system.
I'm moving to another house with bigger listening room and unfortunately, with wooden floor. But, WTH it's nice to have these kind of problems!
inrank, I love your turntable!
............nice BIBs too.
myster_maze said:
Thanks for the advice, GM. And I'm moving to a house with taller ceiling.
I have a lot of serious problems to solve in the next days, weeks, months, ... for my system.
I'm moving to another house with bigger listening room and unfortunately, with wooden floor. But, WTH it's nice to have these kind of problems!
inrank, I love your turntable!
............nice BIBs too.
Thanks, not sounding too bad
yeah i do love the design of the Focus One, one thing that attracted me to it in the first place Neofone BiB
Just done an experiment of adding a couple of standard dome Audax treble units I'd stashed in a cupboard, I used crocodile clips and a .68uF cap on the positive connection. It does do something and this was with the treble units sitting on the floor leaning against the front of the cabinet.
I'm not sure I'll want to make these a permanent feature but if I was going to will it work to cut a hole and mount the Audax in the baffle directly above the Neofone in a standard 2-way kind of look? If so, can they be wired from the terminals of the Neofone directly below or will the Audax need it's own cabling from the input block?
I'm listening to them right now without the additional treble unit and on most music they're fine now I've sorted out the stuffing. If I add the treble unit and listen again I think, "yeah, sounds more open," but then I can go straight back to listening without the additional unit. I like it with and without, kind of thing.
I'm considering the Fostex FE168E, which I understand is a proper full-range unit and so I see this as an alternative option to adding this treble unit with the Neofone.
Thoughts please anyone?
Ta
Brian
Just done an experiment of adding a couple of standard dome Audax treble units I'd stashed in a cupboard, I used crocodile clips and a .68uF cap on the positive connection. It does do something and this was with the treble units sitting on the floor leaning against the front of the cabinet.
I'm not sure I'll want to make these a permanent feature but if I was going to will it work to cut a hole and mount the Audax in the baffle directly above the Neofone in a standard 2-way kind of look? If so, can they be wired from the terminals of the Neofone directly below or will the Audax need it's own cabling from the input block?
I'm listening to them right now without the additional treble unit and on most music they're fine now I've sorted out the stuffing. If I add the treble unit and listen again I think, "yeah, sounds more open," but then I can go straight back to listening without the additional unit. I like it with and without, kind of thing.
I'm considering the Fostex FE168E, which I understand is a proper full-range unit and so I see this as an alternative option to adding this treble unit with the Neofone.
Thoughts please anyone?
Ta
Brian
chrisb said:FWIW, there may be other methods, but 2 guaranteed to smoke the voice coils on the FE126/127 are :
1)short out the B+ rail of mini-aleph power amp to speaker output ( no great noise, just a nice amber glow for less than a minute then dead silence, and the smell isn't as bad as the Chernobyled power transformer in an old Scott 222 amp)
2) forget to disconnect the speakers when switching inputs (multiple times!) on gain clone amp with no mute circuit - now that will generally make enough noise to be heard even in a room full of yapping DIYers.
the names have been redacted to protect the guilty, but they know who they are.
OK Chrisb!
We need to have, what lawyers sometimes refer to as a "Come to Jesus" meeting, where all the cards on the table are face up.
If you recall, I told a "certain someone" to unplug my am...huh, er...the GainClone amp in question, as there was no on/off switch, before he preceding. Muting circuits are the very work of Satan and "must" be abolished, if the heavenly sounds of Music are to be apprehended and appreciated.
Now it's your turn.
Is the Mini-Aleph spoken of above the same one that..."someone" claimed with their "Lucky" ticket at the drawing?
Now, regarding the old Scott 222 that you mentioned, how exactly (with no names mentioned) did this wondrous and singular example of the tube art meet it's end?
I only know of one such amp that was being used on a regular basis on the whole of Vancouver Island. If I broke my vow of silence regarding names, I'm sure that you (and many others) would recognize the name of the person I am alluding to.
In keeping with my vow of silence, I will not sign my name, thus preserving my identity as well as those of the guilty parties.
Best Regards,
Mr. X
TerryO said:
OK Chrisb!
We need to have, what lawyers sometimes refer to as a "Come to Jesus" meeting, where all the cards on the table are face up.
If you recall, I told a "certain someone" to unplug my am...huh, er...the GainClone amp in question, as there was no on/off switch, before he preceding. Muting circuits are the very work of Satan and "must" be abolished, if the heavenly sounds of Music are to be apprehended and appreciated.
Now it's your turn.
Is the Mini-Aleph spoken of above the same one that..."someone" claimed with their "Lucky" ticket at the drawing?
Now, regarding the old Scott 222 that you mentioned, how exactly (with no names mentioned) did this wondrous and singular example of the tube art meet it's end?
I only know of one such amp that was being used on a regular basis on the whole of Vancouver Island. If I broke my vow of silence regarding names, I'm sure that you (and many others) would recognize the name of the person I am alluding to.
In keeping with my vow of silence, I will not sign my name, thus preserving my identity as well as those of the guilty parties.
Best Regards,
Mr. X
thank you Mr X - few among the congregation would have the testicular fortitude to risk such possible exposure
Enough water has flowed under this particular bridge that we can forgive our brother for this unfortunate mis-step. Notice the admirable restraint exhibited in not dispensing any blame or recriminations upon the poor victim of the ever present Dr Murphy's roulette wheel of misfortune (you could be next my friend)
no doubt the combined and divine influence of your's and brother K's state of personal grace have shown a light on the pathway to my redemption
(made myself laff)
The aleph in question had enjoyed a new home near the northern extremity of "the Island", before transmogrifying into a derivation of an HK Citation circuit. Due to my abbreviated visit at the most recent VI-DIY event, I never got a chance to hear that particular incarnation - nor did I attend the "draw". I'd guess that all present were blessed with the company, and the luck of the gifting draw was only superfluous. My own good fortune is in enjoying the event's host's gracious companionship at my convenience.
(too much?)
The Scott was one of two that we ruthlessly surgically altered to basic power amp configuration, with a net thermal load on the mains transformer far lower than that of the original design load for the full function integrated unit. Let's not forget that these are both older than many members of this audience, and than the laws of averages and operating life spawn far beyond original design life MTBF will eventually claim some fatalities. The other cannibalized unit is still functioning quite fine.
cheery bye, friend
Re: Neofone BiB
Yes, though considering how far off axis you sit, if any, it can theoretically be advantageous to rotate the tweeter off vertical to some point up to 3 o'clock around the Neofone to better acoustically phase them.
Yes, and its wire can be much smaller since it will 'feel' the need for much less current than the mains.
Yes, a super tweeter done right only adds a bit of top end 'air' around violins, cymbals, etc., harmonics this high up.
During my years of worrying about getting the extreme HF right for a female's typically superior HF hearing acuity, the consensus among them was either make them 'sweet' or roll them off fast above ~15 kHz, especially for FM radio, so apparently the pioneers of audio knew when to stop seeking increasing ~flat HF response to the limits of human hearing in sound reproduction systems outside the laboratory and why CD in general has such a bad rep IMO, especially when SS driven.
So if I were in your shoes and happy with the Neofone's performance I'd get a consensus from females as to how the current system sounds before swapping out to a driver that requires some form of CD EQ to take max advantage of its HF capability just to change your system's HF performance.
As always though, YMMV.
GM
Brain said:
Yes, though considering how far off axis you sit, if any, it can theoretically be advantageous to rotate the tweeter off vertical to some point up to 3 o'clock around the Neofone to better acoustically phase them.
Yes, and its wire can be much smaller since it will 'feel' the need for much less current than the mains.
Yes, a super tweeter done right only adds a bit of top end 'air' around violins, cymbals, etc., harmonics this high up.
During my years of worrying about getting the extreme HF right for a female's typically superior HF hearing acuity, the consensus among them was either make them 'sweet' or roll them off fast above ~15 kHz, especially for FM radio, so apparently the pioneers of audio knew when to stop seeking increasing ~flat HF response to the limits of human hearing in sound reproduction systems outside the laboratory and why CD in general has such a bad rep IMO, especially when SS driven.
So if I were in your shoes and happy with the Neofone's performance I'd get a consensus from females as to how the current system sounds before swapping out to a driver that requires some form of CD EQ to take max advantage of its HF capability just to change your system's HF performance.
As always though, YMMV.
GM
I made BIBs awhile ago. They don't work well in the alcove in the room where they are pictured here but they work well in my other listening room.
They are inverted BIBs (but not the planet 10 design), driver is positioned at about 40 percent of total line length. The length is about 96 inches and the mouth is about 80 square inches. I'm using the fostex fe126e. According to the BIB calculator and zillaspeak these boxes are a bit oversized for the 126 but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I don't have any software that can calculate FR for an offset driver, but I can guess fairly accurately (I think) based on the zillaspeak graph and the nature of 40 percent driver offset behavior. It gives an idea of where the ripples are going to be anyway.
That's a pretty bad rendering but I think it illustrates the point, Compare that 2 pi simulation to my actual in room measured response with BIBs positioned in corners.
I have some major room mode problems at approximately 55, 110, 230 hz (and higher, but those 3 are the major offenders). These BIBs don't kick up the lowest mode much (the sub does) but the higher two are clearly a problem and affect every speaker and sub used in this room. Notice that none of the BIB resonances fall directly on the 110 or 230 hz room modes. This was dumb luck but probably accounts for the fact that these BIBs work well (in relative terms) in this room while many other speakers don't. Unfortunately the BIBs do have a resonance right between the 110 and 230 hz room modes though which can clearly be seen in the estimated simulation and in the actual measurement, but between them is a lot better than directly on one of them.
Apart from the 10+ db room mode problems, you can see that the BIB does exactly what it promises, flat(ish) in room response all the way down to tuning (which might be a few hz lower than expected, based on 2 pi sims). The dreaded BIB FR ripple really does not seem to be a problem at all, with the exception of the one peak surrounded and boosted by the room modes directly above and below it. I'm really not sure how pronounced that peak would be in the absense of the room modes. I have no way to know (no other room with good corners for testing) so I can't pass any final judgement on these speakers. But I can say that in my case, with the addition of a bit of eq to work around my room mode issues and with the addition of a sub to add a bit of weight and extension, these speakers sound great in a room where nothing sounds very good.
Initially I was a bit put off by the larger than average size and weight of these things, considering the size of the driver and the fact that they still benefit greatly from (need) a sub, but the fact that they take up very little floorspace and work great shoved right into a corner seems to make up for that somewhat.
I am very happy with my BIBs so far. If you compare the simulated and measured response (even though the sim is only 2 pi it's valid in many respects) the BIB is actually a pretty good fit for this nasty room in that the BIB ripple (what little there is) and room modes are interlaced. In a better room they would probably sound outstanding with no eq at all, I really don't think the 190 hz BIB resonance would be much of a problem if it wasn't surrounded by massive room mode peaks.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
They are inverted BIBs (but not the planet 10 design), driver is positioned at about 40 percent of total line length. The length is about 96 inches and the mouth is about 80 square inches. I'm using the fostex fe126e. According to the BIB calculator and zillaspeak these boxes are a bit oversized for the 126 but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I don't have any software that can calculate FR for an offset driver, but I can guess fairly accurately (I think) based on the zillaspeak graph and the nature of 40 percent driver offset behavior. It gives an idea of where the ripples are going to be anyway.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
That's a pretty bad rendering but I think it illustrates the point, Compare that 2 pi simulation to my actual in room measured response with BIBs positioned in corners.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have some major room mode problems at approximately 55, 110, 230 hz (and higher, but those 3 are the major offenders). These BIBs don't kick up the lowest mode much (the sub does) but the higher two are clearly a problem and affect every speaker and sub used in this room. Notice that none of the BIB resonances fall directly on the 110 or 230 hz room modes. This was dumb luck but probably accounts for the fact that these BIBs work well (in relative terms) in this room while many other speakers don't. Unfortunately the BIBs do have a resonance right between the 110 and 230 hz room modes though which can clearly be seen in the estimated simulation and in the actual measurement, but between them is a lot better than directly on one of them.
Apart from the 10+ db room mode problems, you can see that the BIB does exactly what it promises, flat(ish) in room response all the way down to tuning (which might be a few hz lower than expected, based on 2 pi sims). The dreaded BIB FR ripple really does not seem to be a problem at all, with the exception of the one peak surrounded and boosted by the room modes directly above and below it. I'm really not sure how pronounced that peak would be in the absense of the room modes. I have no way to know (no other room with good corners for testing) so I can't pass any final judgement on these speakers. But I can say that in my case, with the addition of a bit of eq to work around my room mode issues and with the addition of a sub to add a bit of weight and extension, these speakers sound great in a room where nothing sounds very good.
Initially I was a bit put off by the larger than average size and weight of these things, considering the size of the driver and the fact that they still benefit greatly from (need) a sub, but the fact that they take up very little floorspace and work great shoved right into a corner seems to make up for that somewhat.
I am very happy with my BIBs so far. If you compare the simulated and measured response (even though the sim is only 2 pi it's valid in many respects) the BIB is actually a pretty good fit for this nasty room in that the BIB ripple (what little there is) and room modes are interlaced. In a better room they would probably sound outstanding with no eq at all, I really don't think the 190 hz BIB resonance would be much of a problem if it wasn't surrounded by massive room mode peaks.
>>> these speakers sound great in a room where nothing sounds very good.
That's great!
>>> Initially I was a bit put off by the larger than average size and weight of these things, considering the size of the driver and the fact that they still benefit greatly from (need) a sub, but the fact that they take up very little floorspace and work great shoved right into a corner seems to make up for that somewhat.
I have larger BIBs than you and still feel low bass can be better. I am waiting on a pair of 15" drivers (should arrive today!) to put into H-frames. Will power with a dedicated amp in hopes to improve bass to the point where it can't be improved much further... I'm excited about building again too! In case anyone didn't know, i am out of surgery about 8 months, was unable to build any projects and unable to exercise. Well today my drivers should arrive and my karate gear bag is packed and ready to go. I plan to workout this evening!
Feels great to be back to normal these days!
Back to the BIBs, it's amazing to see the chart and the extension a 127e is capable of!
That's great!
>>> Initially I was a bit put off by the larger than average size and weight of these things, considering the size of the driver and the fact that they still benefit greatly from (need) a sub, but the fact that they take up very little floorspace and work great shoved right into a corner seems to make up for that somewhat.
I have larger BIBs than you and still feel low bass can be better. I am waiting on a pair of 15" drivers (should arrive today!) to put into H-frames. Will power with a dedicated amp in hopes to improve bass to the point where it can't be improved much further... I'm excited about building again too! In case anyone didn't know, i am out of surgery about 8 months, was unable to build any projects and unable to exercise. Well today my drivers should arrive and my karate gear bag is packed and ready to go. I plan to workout this evening!
Feels great to be back to normal these days!
Back to the BIBs, it's amazing to see the chart and the extension a 127e is capable of!
I'm glad for two things: Godzilla is in full revovery from surgery and the fact that the BIB discussion has turned to room issues.
I set up my usually listening configuration of BIB and MLTL in a square room with more distance at the listening position (the more or less duplicates my primary setup (total sets is two) in my living room.
The primary listening space is about 2x the size and is much longer-- I think I measured it at 18ft.
Well the square room setup is Much Better and surprisingly so since it is a bedroom converted to a small work area.
Aside from size, I'm wondering how a series of closet doors (which are metal) affect the overall sound. The whole deal has me scratching my head. I've switched drivers a number of times and _everything_ works. The BIB and MLTL are both performing (apparently regardless of box shape) better than the other larger and longer room.
I'm not a bass hog and I listen to classical and some world music broadcasts. The difference in rooms is quite startling and this put me on the path to doing speaker mods.
I set up my usually listening configuration of BIB and MLTL in a square room with more distance at the listening position (the more or less duplicates my primary setup (total sets is two) in my living room.
The primary listening space is about 2x the size and is much longer-- I think I measured it at 18ft.
Well the square room setup is Much Better and surprisingly so since it is a bedroom converted to a small work area.
Aside from size, I'm wondering how a series of closet doors (which are metal) affect the overall sound. The whole deal has me scratching my head. I've switched drivers a number of times and _everything_ works. The BIB and MLTL are both performing (apparently regardless of box shape) better than the other larger and longer room.
I'm not a bass hog and I listen to classical and some world music broadcasts. The difference in rooms is quite startling and this put me on the path to doing speaker mods.
Godzilla, they are 126e, but yeah, they have an impressive strong 40 hz tuning. If I have to I can happily listen to most music without an eq or sub, but some material absolutely requires one or the other or both. They do go low but the bass has no weight to it, which is not exactly a surprise from a 4.5 inch driver.
Great to hear your recovery is complete and you are back in the game.
BTW, I got to audition a single BOFU half chang recently (the other hasn't been built yet) and I am pretty sure a BIB with an 8 inch driver would not need a sub for added bass weight. Half chang and BIB are apples and oranges of course but you know what I mean.
Great to hear your recovery is complete and you are back in the game.
BTW, I got to audition a single BOFU half chang recently (the other hasn't been built yet) and I am pretty sure a BIB with an 8 inch driver would not need a sub for added bass weight. Half chang and BIB are apples and oranges of course but you know what I mean.
help with ff165k bib dims
I finally got the green light (sort of) to go ahead with my ff165k bib build and would like to order the wood before the holidays. Which of the 3 dims (2 on zillaspeak and 1 w/ gm's calculator) would work best in the following situation:
1. approx. 650sq ft room with low (220cm) ceilings
2. f2 current source amp, charlize tripath or gainclone
3. 2.2cm poplar ply for the build
4. no suprabaffle (for now at least)
5. will eventually be Enabled
Would the use of a current source amp necessitate making the volume larger or smaller? Also, with the low ceiling is the tall version is too close to couple properly? If the difference in performance is negligible I would just as soon go with the smallest to save on wood costs.
Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!
I finally got the green light (sort of) to go ahead with my ff165k bib build and would like to order the wood before the holidays. Which of the 3 dims (2 on zillaspeak and 1 w/ gm's calculator) would work best in the following situation:
1. approx. 650sq ft room with low (220cm) ceilings
2. f2 current source amp, charlize tripath or gainclone
3. 2.2cm poplar ply for the build
4. no suprabaffle (for now at least)
5. will eventually be Enabled
Would the use of a current source amp necessitate making the volume larger or smaller? Also, with the low ceiling is the tall version is too close to couple properly? If the difference in performance is negligible I would just as soon go with the smallest to save on wood costs.
Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!
Re: help with ff165k bib dims
CSS amps increases the driver's effective Qts, so ideally needs to be factored in or you may wind up with bloated/boomy/muddy mid-bass with little perceived bass, ergo BIB applies, especially considering your relatively large room with no real room gain in the audible BW even if (shudder) it's square.
WRT ceiling height, you can run it all the way up to the ceiling if you want and cut out one or more sides as required to find the best in-room tuning as I did except mine were corner/floor loaded, ergo closeness to the ceiling isn't an issue per se as it's easily compensated for by adjusting one or more of the other sides as required. This could be just a simple slant cut or elaborate 'K' slot(s) or TC's wavy shaped angled cutout he did on a floor loaded one. Let you and/or your S.O.'s imagination run wild.
WRT making them as small as practical, this ideally requires measured specs of the driver mounted on a large baffle and coupled to the amp as well as some room measurements, otherwise it's a crapshoot at best.
GM
giantstairs said:
CSS amps increases the driver's effective Qts, so ideally needs to be factored in or you may wind up with bloated/boomy/muddy mid-bass with little perceived bass, ergo BIB applies, especially considering your relatively large room with no real room gain in the audible BW even if (shudder) it's square.
WRT ceiling height, you can run it all the way up to the ceiling if you want and cut out one or more sides as required to find the best in-room tuning as I did except mine were corner/floor loaded, ergo closeness to the ceiling isn't an issue per se as it's easily compensated for by adjusting one or more of the other sides as required. This could be just a simple slant cut or elaborate 'K' slot(s) or TC's wavy shaped angled cutout he did on a floor loaded one. Let you and/or your S.O.'s imagination run wild.
WRT making them as small as practical, this ideally requires measured specs of the driver mounted on a large baffle and coupled to the amp as well as some room measurements, otherwise it's a crapshoot at best.
GM