That's your opinion, and it's probably carved in stone. We could discuss mechanical engineering, CE design, molds for ABS injected parts and other issues and I could give you objective examples with pictures, explaining the problems real mechanical engineers had to overcome, but all that would be off-topic.HBarske said:
A little aluminium/wood box without even a single volume pot or switch is certainly not an example of mechanical engineering. And the design is actually a rehash (some would say plagiarism or more simply - copy) of the basic idea from Japan.
Gigapod said:
Hi Gigapod,
Thanks for the extra pair of eyes, I wear glasses.
Unfortunately, this amp is not worth rescuing. BTW: I learnt to solder way before chipamps were even thought of, probably about the time the CA-700 was being built.What's wrong with this Yamaha?
Attachments
If this thread goes in the right direction it could form a great resource for those choosing to build a DIY amp. To have a thread with recommended amps in the one place is great and I rely on this type of information when choosing an amp to build as it's heart ache when you make the wrong choice.... so keep them coming.
I for one can't design an amp or even do a PCB (except with a Dremel) and have been grateful to those who have put up designs, sold boards and kits. I could not afford commercial gear with this sound quality and I'm sure my listening pleasure would not be at the level it is without these people. The aim of this game for me is my musical enjoyment..... DIY is a path to get there.
There seems to be a problem with the word reference and the loudspeaker forum did one years ago. The originator of the thread meant it to be a speaker that the newbie or others could build and would be a reference point only.... sort of a springboard to greater things and a datum. This meant that no matter where you lived you could discuss the sound with another builder or share tweaks with this doing that or the other. So a guy in the USA would know the sound that someone has in the UK. The speaker that came out of it was only a modest, economical little 2-way but had special qualities where it counted. As you progressed in the hobby and if you could beat it with the next build, you knew you were heading in the right direction. A reference point is so important especially if you are an isolated designer or builder as it's so easy to go off on the wrong track.
The other reference of course is the best of the best and there are plenty of those around here and a lot have been mentioned. Maybe a list of the best few in each class would be good. I don't think you will ever find one best of the best to suit all but for each class..... surely.
I for one can't design an amp or even do a PCB (except with a Dremel) and have been grateful to those who have put up designs, sold boards and kits. I could not afford commercial gear with this sound quality and I'm sure my listening pleasure would not be at the level it is without these people. The aim of this game for me is my musical enjoyment..... DIY is a path to get there.
There seems to be a problem with the word reference and the loudspeaker forum did one years ago. The originator of the thread meant it to be a speaker that the newbie or others could build and would be a reference point only.... sort of a springboard to greater things and a datum. This meant that no matter where you lived you could discuss the sound with another builder or share tweaks with this doing that or the other. So a guy in the USA would know the sound that someone has in the UK. The speaker that came out of it was only a modest, economical little 2-way but had special qualities where it counted. As you progressed in the hobby and if you could beat it with the next build, you knew you were heading in the right direction. A reference point is so important especially if you are an isolated designer or builder as it's so easy to go off on the wrong track.
The other reference of course is the best of the best and there are plenty of those around here and a lot have been mentioned. Maybe a list of the best few in each class would be good. I don't think you will ever find one best of the best to suit all but for each class..... surely.
" Building a chipamp teaches you about construction techniques, fusing, transformers, heatsinks, wiring, earthing and soldering. "
Most of kits give to builders too many " space " for own invention, which you can see at " chip " forums. Thousands questions, thousands answers.... It maybe " tickle " author's ego, but for me it represent, that all is wrong designed or minimally that instruction manual is wrong. If you can take a vote on the best DIY construction, look at this from this angle.... Vote the best constuction in ALL aspect....
Most of kits give to builders too many " space " for own invention, which you can see at " chip " forums. Thousands questions, thousands answers.... It maybe " tickle " author's ego, but for me it represent, that all is wrong designed or minimally that instruction manual is wrong. If you can take a vote on the best DIY construction, look at this from this angle.... Vote the best constuction in ALL aspect....
Hi tinitus,tinitus said:Being a very good curcuit designer doesnt automatically mean your also a good amp builder, designing handsome enclosures or making nice layout
That is quite obviously correct (apart from spelling and grammar).
But the little square box with the wooden panels is neither an original design, nor is it a good solution in terms of thermal and/or mechanical engineering.
So it's not a reference design in terms of either:
- cost and/or value.
- circuit.
- design.
- mechanical engineering.
- thermal engineering.
The marketing strategy is a pale copy of the Japanese one.
The original Japanese product is certainly a reference in terms of successful marketing, shocking to some, mildly amusing to me (I won't repeat a link to a certain Wikipedia article, lest I should be accused of incivility).
" Building a chipamp teaches you about construction techniques, fusing, transformers, heatsinks, wiring, earthing and soldering."
I agree but only if one is willing to learn. Too often people just ask simple questions that they could answer themselves buy sacrifing some time in studying basic electronics, earthing techniques, common return routing techniques and importance and meaning of component parameters like VA rating, fuse rating, thermal resistance, wire gauge etc. Most of the people follow the answers they get to their questions blindly thus they learn only a little or nothing at all - especially if the design works immediately.
No to make this completely off topic my opinion of what a good reference amplifier is, is an amplifier with a minimal amount of distortion and flat frequency response hooked up to a speaker system with flat frequency response. In reality such systems do not exist but it is possible to get close. I think it is not worthwhile to reference something to a reference that adds coloration and is not constant: For example, if you'd want to state a voltage reading you usually state it in a reference to zero volts. If the reference is not zero volts but something altering between +-5V and varying with frequency, then stating any voltage readings will become meaningless, agreed? In my opinion, reference amplifier doesn't have to be audibly pleasing but it needs to qualify as a linear reference that performs predictably, that makes pinpointing differences between reference and the one being compared easier. However, this answer is a bit far from the original idea of this thread's starter.
I agree but only if one is willing to learn. Too often people just ask simple questions that they could answer themselves buy sacrifing some time in studying basic electronics, earthing techniques, common return routing techniques and importance and meaning of component parameters like VA rating, fuse rating, thermal resistance, wire gauge etc. Most of the people follow the answers they get to their questions blindly thus they learn only a little or nothing at all - especially if the design works immediately.
No to make this completely off topic my opinion of what a good reference amplifier is, is an amplifier with a minimal amount of distortion and flat frequency response hooked up to a speaker system with flat frequency response. In reality such systems do not exist but it is possible to get close. I think it is not worthwhile to reference something to a reference that adds coloration and is not constant: For example, if you'd want to state a voltage reading you usually state it in a reference to zero volts. If the reference is not zero volts but something altering between +-5V and varying with frequency, then stating any voltage readings will become meaningless, agreed? In my opinion, reference amplifier doesn't have to be audibly pleasing but it needs to qualify as a linear reference that performs predictably, that makes pinpointing differences between reference and the one being compared easier. However, this answer is a bit far from the original idea of this thread's starter.
You will never agree:
A 'Reference" amp. can be either a personal reference, or it can be an amp to which most people can easily have access. What is important is that it falls in a recognisible bracket and has surrounding it amps which are either more or less acceptable. It should drive average loads and be compatible with a large range of other items in the chain.
Of course it used to be easy when there were fewer amps. around. These days it is much more difficult as personal preferences have changed....some want SET amps, others will only consider amps capable of driving very low impedance speakers at criminal levels of loudness.
So I suspect each group of people need different references...references which mean something to them...and then it is neccessary to further subdivide on divisions of cost stages................and on and on it will go.
We can only have our own personal references. Mine, given a basically good noisefree system, depend more on the mood which the equipment develops in me. Some amps give me a real living headache in less than 20 minutes, others I can listen to for days on end.
A 'Reference" amp. can be either a personal reference, or it can be an amp to which most people can easily have access. What is important is that it falls in a recognisible bracket and has surrounding it amps which are either more or less acceptable. It should drive average loads and be compatible with a large range of other items in the chain.
Of course it used to be easy when there were fewer amps. around. These days it is much more difficult as personal preferences have changed....some want SET amps, others will only consider amps capable of driving very low impedance speakers at criminal levels of loudness.
So I suspect each group of people need different references...references which mean something to them...and then it is neccessary to further subdivide on divisions of cost stages................and on and on it will go.
We can only have our own personal references. Mine, given a basically good noisefree system, depend more on the mood which the equipment develops in me. Some amps give me a real living headache in less than 20 minutes, others I can listen to for days on end.
I think that the reference amp should be whatever you can keep together and use to do a AB comparison. I like to build a lot of amps. Ten to twelve a year. It is difficult to get heatsinks and chassis for big class A amps so I tend to recycle them. The only amps that I have been able to keep together for the past year are LM3886, JLH, and Mosfet A-40 and Krell Clone. At the end of this year who knows?
MikeW said:
JLH has been already mentioned, more than once in this topic.
It is a fully open source amplifier.
Which means it has been published and
is a part of common knowledge in audio community.
This is about the only way to make a good DIY Reference Amplifier,
if your stuff holds to good quality of practical sound output.
This is the short headline of the first version
published in Wireless World 1969....!!!!
There has been several updates .. even in later years
before the death of legendary John Linsley-Hood.
A legend in his own lifetime, like 'The One and Only' Nelson Pass.
------------------------------------------------------
Jean Hiraga, the frenchman,
has also some amplifier we may call DIY Reference Amplifier.
Even this is a well known open source project for common knowledge.
The source of my information in this post is all to be found at
The Class-A Amplifier Site
This is ONE SITE you can not miss
if you are new to DIY Audio and interested in amplifier making.
Regards
lineup
Lineup Audio Labs
http://lineup.awardspace.com/
-----------------------------------------------------
References and Links used:
Jean Hiraga Class-A Amplifiers
The JLH Class-A Amplifier
Other Class-A Amplifiers - for example John Curl's JC-3
Classic Class-B Schematics - like NAD 3020
The Class-A Amplifier Site
Re: Re: Reference DIY amplifiers
TomWaits - with good plumbering in house
horus is not a man of many words, looks like
what i remember he has only posted 1 reply
in which he agreed with me
... but i think he reads the more
... maybe something we should try
... at least me, and quite a few others!!
TomWaits said:
Hello horus,
How are your thoughts these days? So many opinions and so many designs?
Just wondering if anything has tweaked your interest yet?
Shawn.
TomWaits - with good plumbering in house
horus is not a man of many words, looks like
what i remember he has only posted 1 reply
in which he agreed with me
... but i think he reads the more
... maybe something we should try
... at least me, and quite a few others!!
Originally posted by lineup
Yes, I think so too, Gigapod
That is the idea by horus the topic starter. I am sure.
hehe
... the hard part
... amplifiers are like wine, women, cigars and cars & religion
taste is different
can be very different
and people can start to argue and fight over it
... it is no use
... except as a test of our tolerance towards others
... not perfectly alike us and not doing things 'our own twisted way'
.
Hi,
I'm sorry for this delayed reply.
@lineup, there are at least 2 more replies.
Anyway, it seems that I was misunderstood. Probably due to the fact that english isn't my first language.
When I said "DIY reference amps" I was talking about amplifiers that are very popular around DIY builders, praised for their sound, and that can compete with high-end commercial ones(ML, Naim, Linn, Ayre, and others that are playing in this category)
I'm sorry for this delayed reply.
@lineup, there are at least 2 more replies.
Anyway, it seems that I was misunderstood. Probably due to the fact that english isn't my first language.
When I said "DIY reference amps" I was talking about amplifiers that are very popular around DIY builders, praised for their sound, and that can compete with high-end commercial ones(ML, Naim, Linn, Ayre, and others that are playing in this category)
horus said:
horus,
nothing to be sorrow about
thanks for starting this topic
misunderstood or not, it is a good enough topic
i haven't noticed anything special about your language
there are many many here
that like you and me
have not english as first language
if they, 'the english ones', posted in my language at our forums,
there would probably be lots and lots of misunderstandings
I am not sure we could avoid to laugh a little bit to them
... maybe lucky thing is, we do the talking in this foreign language - of english
... isn't it
Regards
lineup
I shall summarize which were the mentioned amplifiers (order thet they were posted):
Leach amplifier: http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/audiothings.html
LM3886/LM4780 chip amplifiers(general)
PASS DIY:http://www.passdiy.com/
Krells KSA50 & KSA100MKII:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31077&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=1
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78129&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=1
Rod Elliot P3A:http://sound.westhost.com/project3a.htm
MikeB'sSymasym: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60918&highlight=
ZEN Class A(Nelson Pass) Aleph(many variations)
JLH:http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/index-1.htm
Geoff Moss's latest version of JLH: http://www.members.shaw.ca/paul.r.brown/DIY/Geoff Moss JLH/
David Tilbrook's AEM6000: http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/poweramp/poweramp.pdf
AKSA kits:http://www.aksaonline.com/products_2.html
Power amp under development:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43331
Death of Gain Clone:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69782&highlight=
SKA(??????)
Erno Borbely kits:http://www.borbelyaudio.com/products.asp
Anthony Holton
Please attach this part to my previous post for the moment.
Krell KSA 50 clone building guide
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index....=Building+guide
Krell KSA 100 clone group buy and related info
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index....n+the+group+buy
Aleph X (Pass Labs variant) building guide
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index.php?page=Aleph-X
Jean Hiraga Class-A Amplifiers
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/hiraga.htm
The JLH Class-A Amplifier
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/index-1.htm
Other Class-A Amplifiers - for example John Curl's JC-3
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/index-3.htm
Classic Class-B Schematics - like NAD 3020
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/index-4.htm
The Class-A Amplifier Site
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/
Tubes:
1.300b (or 2A3)single ended with various driver stages(JElabs is a classic 6sn7-300b)
2.Williamson type push-pull amp.
... in this very moment I see that I can't EDIT my post later...I'll post it like this and I will ask later a moderator to merge it.
Leach amplifier: http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mleach/audiothings.html
LM3886/LM4780 chip amplifiers(general)
PASS DIY:http://www.passdiy.com/
Krells KSA50 & KSA100MKII:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31077&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=1
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78129&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=1
Rod Elliot P3A:http://sound.westhost.com/project3a.htm
MikeB'sSymasym: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60918&highlight=
ZEN Class A(Nelson Pass) Aleph(many variations)
JLH:http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/index-1.htm
Geoff Moss's latest version of JLH: http://www.members.shaw.ca/paul.r.brown/DIY/Geoff Moss JLH/
David Tilbrook's AEM6000: http://www.littlefishbicycles.com/poweramp/poweramp.pdf
AKSA kits:http://www.aksaonline.com/products_2.html
Power amp under development:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43331
Death of Gain Clone:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69782&highlight=
SKA(??????)
Erno Borbely kits:http://www.borbelyaudio.com/products.asp
Anthony Holton
Please attach this part to my previous post for the moment.
Krell KSA 50 clone building guide
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index....=Building+guide
Krell KSA 100 clone group buy and related info
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index....n+the+group+buy
Aleph X (Pass Labs variant) building guide
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index.php?page=Aleph-X
Jean Hiraga Class-A Amplifiers
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/hiraga.htm
The JLH Class-A Amplifier
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/index-1.htm
Other Class-A Amplifiers - for example John Curl's JC-3
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/index-3.htm
Classic Class-B Schematics - like NAD 3020
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/index-4.htm
The Class-A Amplifier Site
http://www.tcaas.btinternet.co.uk/
Tubes:
1.300b (or 2A3)single ended with various driver stages(JElabs is a classic 6sn7-300b)
2.Williamson type push-pull amp.
... in this very moment I see that I can't EDIT my post later...I'll post it like this and I will ask later a moderator to merge it.
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