Peter Daniel said:
Some of us prefer listening to music while designing amps.
I know you sell (overpriced) chipamp kits, but I'll stick to what I wrote:
There is almost nothing to learn about amplifier design if you build or design around a chipamp, because 99% of the thinking was done by the (excellent) engineers at NS.
People who buy your kits learn (at best) how to solder.
hi Gigapod,
I think Peter has a point, "We don't ALL want to design amps, just build them". In fact most of us aren't really capable of designing amps.
A reference amp (to me) is a benchmark to compare the "sound" of other amps too.
Peter's LM3875 Dual Mono Classic Kit @ $57.00 seems cheap to me.
Building an amp is more than constructing the actual amp PCB. The physical construction is as demaining, if not more so, than throwing a few components into a circuit board. Building a chipamp teaches you about construction techniques, fusing, transformers, heatsinks, wiring, earthing and soldering.
We all have (slightly) different objectives so we need to be carefull not to dis anyone. I hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes.
IMHO, if we are looking for a "group" reference amp rather than for the individual, then the Symasym gets my vote as I think it would meet criteria of a reference amp to the majority of members of the group.
regards
I think Peter has a point, "We don't ALL want to design amps, just build them". In fact most of us aren't really capable of designing amps.
A reference amp (to me) is a benchmark to compare the "sound" of other amps too.
Peter's LM3875 Dual Mono Classic Kit @ $57.00 seems cheap to me.
Building an amp is more than constructing the actual amp PCB. The physical construction is as demaining, if not more so, than throwing a few components into a circuit board. Building a chipamp teaches you about construction techniques, fusing, transformers, heatsinks, wiring, earthing and soldering.
We all have (slightly) different objectives so we need to be carefull not to dis anyone. I hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes.
IMHO, if we are looking for a "group" reference amp rather than for the individual, then the Symasym gets my vote as I think it would meet criteria of a reference amp to the majority of members of the group.
regards
I guess there are no best amp, but my 50 watt MIRAND has been playing happily fore more than a year now, turned on day and night - and its single pair of bipolar just resently survived being beaten hard into a 1 ohm load on KAPPA 9, no sweat - so yes, thats a very nice amp with wonderfull tubish sound
>>>Like having a bicycle with training wheels.
Yup. Exactly. If there were no training wheels, there would be less riders.
>>>constructors start considering themselves as 'designers'
Yah, you betcha. Made some really cool volume and selector knobs last weekend. I are an inginair now.
Hats off to all those whose innate skills allowed them to bypass the learning stages.
>>>Does your wife like us that much. Nice!
Yes. Especially the part where she walked bare foot into the bedroom and got a resistor tail embedded in her foot. She says that at least she knows where to find me in the odd circumstance where I might be needed.
Yup. Exactly. If there were no training wheels, there would be less riders.
>>>constructors start considering themselves as 'designers'
Yah, you betcha. Made some really cool volume and selector knobs last weekend. I are an inginair now.
Hats off to all those whose innate skills allowed them to bypass the learning stages.
>>>Does your wife like us that much. Nice!
Yes. Especially the part where she walked bare foot into the bedroom and got a resistor tail embedded in her foot. She says that at least she knows where to find me in the odd circumstance where I might be needed.
Greg Erskine said:
That's not what he wrote. Read his post again.
BTW I don't need (or want) to build a chipamp (or any other amp) in order to listen to music. I just use a Yamaha vintage amp, which I bought on the bidding site for all of $18 and fixed myself - a $2.50 blown cap.
Sure. But some of us would like to learn how an amp works, why this circuit behaves in such a way, etc.
Assembling a chipamp kit won't teach you anything.
Hu-ho, that's entirely subjective and anyways has nothing to do with the original intention of the OP. Also "amplifier sound" is a whole can of worms I would prefer not to open...
... @ $57.00 seems cheap to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_a_sucker_born_every_minute
Physical construction? You mean, the box (not included with the kit)?
Correct to a certain degree. And it teaches you nothing about amplifier design. That was my point.
Gigapod said:
Assembling and voicing a chip amp, can teach you a lot about listening to the music. The experience I gathered during last few years in that department is invaluable and I haven't the slightest desire to aspire to be a circuit designer.
Apart from the power amps, most of the equipment built these days is op amp based, and it's more about building blocks choices than designing the actual circuits.
The good thing about it, is that anybody can now "design" world class equipment, as long as they know "construction techniques, fusing, transformers, heatsinks, wiring, earthing and soldering".
However, to do that, one needs to be able to make proper choices, and it is not always an easy job, especially if you don't know how to listen to the music
I am having a very hard time reading such phrases and remaining civil.Peter Daniel said:
I just need my ears to listen to music. Assembling a chipamp kit is not required...
To learn about amplifier design, I study schematics, read books and application notes, and ask for explanations on this forum. Thankfully, there are quite a few highly competent electronics engineers or simply technicians willing to share their knowledge and experience.
I have no problem
with to see that all kinds of amplifiers have a good place in diy audio.
- chip amps
- tube amps
- mosfet amps
- gainclones
- hybride amps
- tube amps
- bipolar amps
- valve amps
- inverting amps
- non-inverting amps
- buffer amps
- riaa phono amps
- class b amps
- class k amps
- class ab amps
- class da amps
- class a amps
- class hab amps
- class c amps
- pre amps
- mic amps
- mp3 amps
- headphone amps
....... and of course: The King of them all
... our beloved Op-Amp
does not matter if built with transistors, called discrete op-amp
even with tubes, tube op-amp
and most solid state power amps are op-amps
and then we have op-amp chips
- low power DIP IC, SO IC
- as well as TO220 and PENTAWATT IC power opamps
let's agree this one thing
no diy person lives without an operational amplifier style circuit
in some of owned devices
it would be hard to avoid using some kind of op-amp
when did you check your CD output last time
or your mp3 player or your sound card
or your radio tuner
in one or another form we have opamps at home
and most of us probably use them regularly and daily
lineup
with to see that all kinds of amplifiers have a good place in diy audio.
- chip amps
- tube amps
- mosfet amps
- gainclones
- hybride amps
- tube amps
- bipolar amps
- valve amps
- inverting amps
- non-inverting amps
- buffer amps
- riaa phono amps
- class b amps
- class k amps
- class ab amps
- class da amps
- class a amps
- class hab amps
- class c amps
- pre amps
- mic amps
- mp3 amps
- headphone amps
....... and of course: The King of them all
... our beloved Op-Amp
does not matter if built with transistors, called discrete op-amp
even with tubes, tube op-amp
and most solid state power amps are op-amps
and then we have op-amp chips
- low power DIP IC, SO IC
- as well as TO220 and PENTAWATT IC power opamps
let's agree this one thing
no diy person lives without an operational amplifier style circuit
in some of owned devices
it would be hard to avoid using some kind of op-amp
when did you check your CD output last time
or your mp3 player or your sound card
or your radio tuner
in one or another form we have opamps at home
and most of us probably use them regularly and daily
lineup
Gigapod said:I am having a very hard time reading such phrases and remaining civil.
Well, you'd better, or the sinbin awaits.
Everyone has a different approach to this hobby of ours, we we need to be aware, and tolerant of that. I've built a lot of chipamps, and still enjoy them, but as a hobby, I find it now more challenging to use discretes. I will never be an EE, or probably even able to design an amp from scratch. But that is the point, it is a hobby, and we all do it for the enjoyment, and actually enjoying listening to what we build is the end point. Personally, if someone gave me ten grand tomorrow, I would probably spend about a grand on bits, and the rest on music. I would be interested to read other members' priorities.
Everyone is just arguing about the meaning of the word "reference". Semantics doesn't make a very interesting discussion, certainly not for a DIY audio board.
How about make a few threads.
* One about what's the best amplifier out there, the ultimate in quality.
* One about what's a good amplifier that many people have heard, that we can compare other amplifiers to when discussing them.
* One about what's a really good amplifier that everyone would benefit from building. Think about a newbie showing up in various amplifier forums asking, "What SS/Tube/Class-D/Chipamp amplifier should I build? What will you tell them?
So everyone can go off and join the discussion that they want to have and we can stop arguing over a stupid word. Then the interesting discussions can begin.
Personally I blame the marketing departments at various high-end audio manufacturers for hijacking the word and giving it a new meaning.
How about make a few threads.
* One about what's the best amplifier out there, the ultimate in quality.
* One about what's a good amplifier that many people have heard, that we can compare other amplifiers to when discussing them.
* One about what's a really good amplifier that everyone would benefit from building. Think about a newbie showing up in various amplifier forums asking, "What SS/Tube/Class-D/Chipamp amplifier should I build? What will you tell them?
So everyone can go off and join the discussion that they want to have and we can stop arguing over a stupid word. Then the interesting discussions can begin.
Personally I blame the marketing departments at various high-end audio manufacturers for hijacking the word and giving it a new meaning.
Gigapod,
training wheels are not everyone's taste, and Peter-Daniel's ways may be too esoteric for most.
Aknowledge that Peter-Daniel is one of the most active DIYs, and that he could give a couple of pro audio designers lessons in mechanical engineering.
His kits are not over the top, even his completed Patek is not expensive compared to a lot of commercial stuff, imo.
A chippie amp may not be a passionate thing, i would not object to having P-D as a neighbor though.
training wheels are not everyone's taste, and Peter-Daniel's ways may be too esoteric for most.
Aknowledge that Peter-Daniel is one of the most active DIYs, and that he could give a couple of pro audio designers lessons in mechanical engineering.
His kits are not over the top, even his completed Patek is not expensive compared to a lot of commercial stuff, imo.
A chippie amp may not be a passionate thing, i would not object to having P-D as a neighbor though.
hi Gigapod,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I won't bother to respond to your post as I think we will go in circles and bore everyone to tears.
When you do actually design and build an amp you *may* find it a lot better than old Yamaha amps. I happen have 2 Yamaha amps, one from the early 90's and one from the 80's (or 70's) and even a simple gainclone sounds a lot better to me in my system.
be happy
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I won't bother to respond to your post as I think we will go in circles and bore everyone to tears.
When you do actually design and build an amp you *may* find it a lot better than old Yamaha amps. I happen have 2 Yamaha amps, one from the early 90's and one from the 80's (or 70's) and even a simple gainclone sounds a lot better to me in my system.
be happy
Attachments
Hi Greg,
FWIW you should have your Yamaha CA-700 (1973-1975) recapped (or diy since you have learned to solder building chipamps). The pale blue cap on the left is obviously in need of being replaced.
As I wrote before, I'd rather not go into the "amplifier sound" argument, besides I never wrote that chipamps measure bad. They probably measure OK within their designed power envelope, if assembled with the recommended parts. All the info one needs is in the NS application notes.
Cheers
FWIW you should have your Yamaha CA-700 (1973-1975) recapped (or diy since you have learned to solder building chipamps). The pale blue cap on the left is obviously in need of being replaced.
As I wrote before, I'd rather not go into the "amplifier sound" argument, besides I never wrote that chipamps measure bad. They probably measure OK within their designed power envelope, if assembled with the recommended parts. All the info one needs is in the NS application notes.
Cheers
Hi Jacco,jacco vermeulen said:
Do you really think so?
I don't agree at all.
I would recommed you check some of the plastic parts in for example, an old Apple Macintosh SE. Or a Logitech mouse. Or any modern Japanese receiver.
They are examples of mechanical engineering prowess.
If you want examples of metal stamping or aluminium machining, I could probably come up with thousands more, in everyday objects, or in audio equipment.
Cheers
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.