Tom, what's wrong with asking a question?
Is it a problem that I have 20+ posts? I have to start from somewhere.
I didn't say that I am going to build an amp right along, I just wanted a thread where newcomers(me included) could see a list of the most popular and most praised DIY amplifiers with a little review of their overall sound.
I had second thoughts before starting this thread, but after a few searches I realized that it isn't such a bad idea beacuse I saw lots and lots of threads where people where asking for good amplifier schematics.
HiFiddle said:
Hello, HiFiddle.
You are still fiddling around here, Greg
Nice!
I think a little problem with SKA as with Slone amplfiers
and many other commercial amplifiers and semi-commercial
is just this:
Circuit schematics and plans can't be explored by DIY people
unless paying some money.
However good they are or are not - what do I know .. I did not pay -
they wont never ever have a chance to match
Open Source Amplifier projects
like:
ESP Rod Elliott - www.sound.au.com
Nelson Pass - www.passdiy.com
Borbely - www.borbelyaudio.com
... just to mention a few good DIY resources, free for everyone
Yes, Borbely, too.
Even though selling very good Kits
there are plenty of interesting PDF schematics and articles for download.
This is wellknown through out the whole 'audio community'.
And Borbely circuits are often refered to.
Refered to
- this makes Borbely Audio a REFERENCE for us at this forum.
Just as well as Nelson Pass and Rod Elliott.
See Borbely Special Articles & Schematics, for download in PDF:
Special Articles of BorbelyAudio.com
A couple of sayings to contemplate,
while we are fiddling with something
or not.
From my country
You should not buy a pig in the sack.
... means you would want to see the pig before you buy.
It is by giving we get most in return.
Give, and unto you should be given.
Take, and from you will be taken.
Will be taken away what little you still have got.
Regards
lineup
likes open source - hates commercialism, like Micorsofft & likes.
Weird Post
I sent this message direct to horus' email. Better I post it here too:
Sorry that came out the wrong way man. It is a weird post looking back now. What I was trying to say was it is hard to get through the DIY Forum and that if it was set up better it would be easier to find the projects that are there. I found it very hard to get into the DIY Forum in the beginning because it is not easy to see what is buried. Reading your post reminds me of when I first started looking at the DIY Forum and I wonder, does it have to be so awkward? It is the way it is but I think the layout could be better. For shy people who never make any posts, may have even less chance to find the forum useful. And again sorry for the encrypted post, it is obvious I was having difficulty making my point. It looks like I took a stab at N. Pass but that wasn't intended either.
Too much Caffeine and up way too late gives odd results.
Jah,
Shawn.
horus said:
I sent this message direct to horus' email. Better I post it here too:
Sorry that came out the wrong way man. It is a weird post looking back now. What I was trying to say was it is hard to get through the DIY Forum and that if it was set up better it would be easier to find the projects that are there. I found it very hard to get into the DIY Forum in the beginning because it is not easy to see what is buried. Reading your post reminds me of when I first started looking at the DIY Forum and I wonder, does it have to be so awkward? It is the way it is but I think the layout could be better. For shy people who never make any posts, may have even less chance to find the forum useful. And again sorry for the encrypted post, it is obvious I was having difficulty making my point. It looks like I took a stab at N. Pass but that wasn't intended either.
Too much Caffeine and up way too late gives odd results.
Jah,
Shawn.
I am totally in line with Lineup. DIY reference designs should be public or at least published schematics(free for personall use). I can't see why people tend to hide them, To my knowledge DIY'ers will never be clients to High Ticket comercial amps, or speaker for that matter. Besides Schematics are just Schematics and only interesting to study. Implementation is what makes a product.
Best
Michael Børresen
www.eben.dk
Best
Michael Børresen
www.eben.dk
Come off it,
then so is ESP, Erno B, Anthony H, to name just the most familiar.
99 out of 100 buy boards anyway, the last one thinks he saves a few bucks by tossing out a crappy board himself. I rarely witness a professional diy board overhere, the PCB layout magicians have theirs made, costing more than kit boards. Most of the kit guys offer good value, buy the boards and you get the schematics for free. After that you're welcome to change anything that displeases.
The ones after the schematics only are not the DIY types, but the RIYs. The majority spends so many hours reading and posting that they have to have insomnia or Dr. Who's phone booth to ever do something themselves.
The assumption that DIYs are not in the market for penthouse equipment is inaccurate.
Maybe not for the full monty, some prefer to mount their big behind in fairly new Connolly leather instead of factory smell polyester.
Personally, i don't have a high opinion of top level msrp buyers. They change brands faster than underwear, including gear that is 100 times longer, a 1000 times more expensive, and 10.000 times heavier than fancy power amps.
Still, if they pay the bill and you can do the thing you enjoy
=>
then so is ESP, Erno B, Anthony H, to name just the most familiar.
99 out of 100 buy boards anyway, the last one thinks he saves a few bucks by tossing out a crappy board himself. I rarely witness a professional diy board overhere, the PCB layout magicians have theirs made, costing more than kit boards. Most of the kit guys offer good value, buy the boards and you get the schematics for free. After that you're welcome to change anything that displeases.
The ones after the schematics only are not the DIY types, but the RIYs. The majority spends so many hours reading and posting that they have to have insomnia or Dr. Who's phone booth to ever do something themselves.
The assumption that DIYs are not in the market for penthouse equipment is inaccurate.
Maybe not for the full monty, some prefer to mount their big behind in fairly new Connolly leather instead of factory smell polyester.
Personally, i don't have a high opinion of top level msrp buyers. They change brands faster than underwear, including gear that is 100 times longer, a 1000 times more expensive, and 10.000 times heavier than fancy power amps.
Still, if they pay the bill and you can do the thing you enjoy
=>
Great discussion!
DIY is split in two branches; open source, free IP of course, and kits, which cost money.
It takes time, inventory, some infrastructure and a lot of documentation to field a kit in the DIY market. It is not realistic to expect a kit for no money at all - the designer either overvalues his ego and undervalues his product, or vice versa. A kit sold for little more than the cost of components and the pcb is essentially giving away the IP, and this is not sustainable in any business model because of the high costs of company overheads all over the world. To give some example of this, my first AKSA 55 pcb design alone took well over 200 hours. OK, so I'm slow, but if you examined the pcb you might be able to see why it took so long!
If the kit is expensive, you are probably getting what you paid for, because all the difficult design work is done, debugged, and thoroughly refined. There are parts synergies there too; some parts work well together, and only time and multiple builds can reveal this. Only someone selling hundreds of kits can achieve this in reasonable time, because of the higher turnover and vested interest.
There are a few open source schematics freely available on the web which are very, very good. NP and JLH and possibly (though I've not heard it!) Death of Zen are good examples. But you do need to design and make a pcb, gather together all the parts - and parts synergies are generally difficult to achieve in these circumstances.
The problem is that all sophisticated technologies require outrageous development time and multiple iterations to achieve something of contemporary commercial value. This requires a skill level in the designer which few hobbyists can aspire to. A few do have this; Geoff Moss and Widowmaker are good examples. But even the experts in this forum would take many months to fully prepare a top performing design. Would they do this for no financial return? A few, yes, but this does not mean that DIYers all over the world should expect this as the norm. That is unreasonable and rather naive!
I have just released a new product I call the Lifeforce. It's the best performing amp I've done; the sonics are extraordinary. However, it took me more than four years and three full-on blind alleys before I reached this point. I have not figured out the development cost, but it would have to be around $50K or so of parts and proto pcbs, not including all the time I did not pay myself!! You would only do this if you were slightly crazy......
Most kits are very well sorted. Erno Borbely's kits are expensive, but superb. NP sells consummate high end products and presumably his business model is based around their sale. His DIY site is a boon to hobbyists all over the world, but is carefully crafted so it does not steal sales from his retail operation. This is qualified altruism on his part; but his business skills are so honed that he can make it work. Others are not so skillful!
If the design is open source, you have a lot of work to do. It is the same with Unix v. Windows. Nothing is for nothing. You generally get what you pay for,
Cheers, and Happy New Year to all here!
Hugh
DIY is split in two branches; open source, free IP of course, and kits, which cost money.
It takes time, inventory, some infrastructure and a lot of documentation to field a kit in the DIY market. It is not realistic to expect a kit for no money at all - the designer either overvalues his ego and undervalues his product, or vice versa. A kit sold for little more than the cost of components and the pcb is essentially giving away the IP, and this is not sustainable in any business model because of the high costs of company overheads all over the world. To give some example of this, my first AKSA 55 pcb design alone took well over 200 hours. OK, so I'm slow, but if you examined the pcb you might be able to see why it took so long!
If the kit is expensive, you are probably getting what you paid for, because all the difficult design work is done, debugged, and thoroughly refined. There are parts synergies there too; some parts work well together, and only time and multiple builds can reveal this. Only someone selling hundreds of kits can achieve this in reasonable time, because of the higher turnover and vested interest.
There are a few open source schematics freely available on the web which are very, very good. NP and JLH and possibly (though I've not heard it!) Death of Zen are good examples. But you do need to design and make a pcb, gather together all the parts - and parts synergies are generally difficult to achieve in these circumstances.
The problem is that all sophisticated technologies require outrageous development time and multiple iterations to achieve something of contemporary commercial value. This requires a skill level in the designer which few hobbyists can aspire to. A few do have this; Geoff Moss and Widowmaker are good examples. But even the experts in this forum would take many months to fully prepare a top performing design. Would they do this for no financial return? A few, yes, but this does not mean that DIYers all over the world should expect this as the norm. That is unreasonable and rather naive!
I have just released a new product I call the Lifeforce. It's the best performing amp I've done; the sonics are extraordinary. However, it took me more than four years and three full-on blind alleys before I reached this point. I have not figured out the development cost, but it would have to be around $50K or so of parts and proto pcbs, not including all the time I did not pay myself!! You would only do this if you were slightly crazy......
Most kits are very well sorted. Erno Borbely's kits are expensive, but superb. NP sells consummate high end products and presumably his business model is based around their sale. His DIY site is a boon to hobbyists all over the world, but is carefully crafted so it does not steal sales from his retail operation. This is qualified altruism on his part; but his business skills are so honed that he can make it work. Others are not so skillful!
If the design is open source, you have a lot of work to do. It is the same with Unix v. Windows. Nothing is for nothing. You generally get what you pay for,
Cheers, and Happy New Year to all here!
Hugh
AKSA said:
I don't think anyone expects all amplifiers around to be open source.
Not DIY people and noone else.
When I just state the facts:
- Good Open source free amplifier projects tend to become popular.
Very popular! If they perform as expected. After some own work and trials.
- Amplifier designs that give nothing for free,
will have a hard time trying to become DIY Reference Amplifiers
Because do-it-yourself, the very concept of it.
This means you would replace a bit of others work - with your own work.
Not necessary ONLY for try to make a good amplifier for less money.
Because some DIY built amplifier are probably More Expensive
than for example a nice AKSA amplifier Kit.
But because it is interesting and satisfying to try to add something of your own
into an amplifier - a few tweaks here and some modifications there.
To costumly try to fit your amplifier as well as possible into your Audio System - your speakers etc.
If looking at things, we can only make this observation:
... to become really a DIY Reference Amplifier
... it has to be a totally open project.
Nelson Pass ZEN - even his First Watt F1 F2 has got this potential
Rod Elliott - Death of Zen and several other
Professor Leach - LowTim Amplifier and the Later double barrel amp
MikeB - SymaSym
It is true, that different audio designers, live in different situations.
Some can afford to share everything.
Some can afford to share a bit - and charge for the rest.
Some can't afford to share anything - and will try to sell all.
And then it is not always about if can .. it is also about if want to.
The likings are different within each person.
It is very easy to have a high good salary as a Professor, like Mr Leach,
and be generous and publish your best stuff.
And we DIY people in this community as a general
has a good understanding of these facts, these conditions.
We do not complain too much because some designs cost money.
The average DIY is used to be the money paying one - whatever is ordered.
But we are grateful for this fact that so many good audio amplifier constructors
give us so many nice ideas - for free.
I have had AKSA amplifiers in mind, when posting here in this topic.
AKSA 55 might qualify as a good DIY Reference in most ways.
Sure is a very much loved amplifier ... for example in Brasil.
The basic simplified schematics of AKSA 55
has also been shared at this forum.
Use SEARCH
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php
Thanks Hugh because you have shared much of your knowledge at this board
by being a participating member in many many interesting discussions
over the years.
--- And not only this, but AKSA,
you have done it in a friendly way
.. in a real classic gentle man style
Regards
lineup
"Hey, they do some things well, Jacco. I have an active sat-sub system I built using chip amps for the bedroom. Sounds great with Barry White. "
Oh the horror!! <Picturing a LARGE pink fuzzy mouse lip sinking to barry White> Shudder......
But tubes are SIGNIFICANTLY more complex and dangerous for a "new" DIY'er.. Even after playing with TWT's I am still nervous about building and playing with audio tube voltages. I guess it is just a perception thing for me, but should be cautioned to new hobbyist who may not be aware..
Any suggestions for an EASY first tube amp? I would not call the Williamson a good first candidate.
Chip amps are SUPER easy, and ANYONE can build one.. For the person who thinks the iPod is the best they ever heard, a simple chip amp can open their eyes to a whole new world... Then they are hooked! 
As I mentioned, I make them and give them away... Every recipient has not stopped thanking me since, and now they and their kids are seeing what the "common consumer" retails stores can't show them. All of my friends tell me they have never seen their kids dance until they brought the chip amps in the house... Since it is cheap, easy to operate(Usually minimal implementation) and FUN the parents let the kids use them, and they ALL enjoy them... Isn't that what this is all about? Fun and enjoyment? Especially when something so small and trivial can bring a family closer...
I would also consider the chip amp as a reference amp because it is where it can all START from... That IS the reference point, it IS where a newbie would SUCCESSFULLY embark on the fabulous journey of learning, experimenting, blowing fuses (and tempers) and smiling as they see progress through the years...
Now let’s all smile and go back to sniffing toxic lead solder fumes....
And I personally admire people who start good threads that can have positive results and help others!
<Nurse saying something in the back ground> What'd you mean I'm suppose to take my happy pill every OTHER day?
Oh the horror!! <Picturing a LARGE pink fuzzy mouse lip sinking to barry White> Shudder......
protos said:What--- no tube amps in this list?
I know this is the solid state thread but horus did not specify only SS.
But tubes are SIGNIFICANTLY more complex and dangerous for a "new" DIY'er.. Even after playing with TWT's I am still nervous about building and playing with audio tube voltages. I guess it is just a perception thing for me, but should be cautioned to new hobbyist who may not be aware..
Any suggestions for an EASY first tube amp? I would not call the Williamson a good first candidate.
dfdye said:
Chip amps are SUPER easy, and ANYONE can build one.. For the person who thinks the iPod is the best they ever heard, a simple chip amp can open their eyes to a whole new world... Then they are hooked!
As I mentioned, I make them and give them away... Every recipient has not stopped thanking me since, and now they and their kids are seeing what the "common consumer" retails stores can't show them. All of my friends tell me they have never seen their kids dance until they brought the chip amps in the house... Since it is cheap, easy to operate(Usually minimal implementation) and FUN the parents let the kids use them, and they ALL enjoy them... Isn't that what this is all about? Fun and enjoyment? Especially when something so small and trivial can bring a family closer...
I would also consider the chip amp as a reference amp because it is where it can all START from... That IS the reference point, it IS where a newbie would SUCCESSFULLY embark on the fabulous journey of learning, experimenting, blowing fuses (and tempers) and smiling as they see progress through the years...
Now let’s all smile and go back to sniffing toxic lead solder fumes....
And I personally admire people who start good threads that can have positive results and help others!
<Nurse saying something in the back ground> What'd you mean I'm suppose to take my happy pill every OTHER day?
I find it sad that so many people are afraid of tubes--specifically of the voltages found in the circuits.
Given that the number of people involved in hands-on electronics has been declining for years, it is a trivial observation to note that scads more people cut their teeth on tubes than transistors. Yet, curiously, the myriad deaths caused by electric shock never made the newspapers. Must have been a government conspiracy to keep the problem under wraps, I guess.
Williamson amp complicated?
Sigh...
Chip amps may be easy, but there's little to be learned from building one. Perhaps they do sound better than the current consumer fad (most anything would, for that matter) but face it, most people are simply too lazy to do anything for themselves. Instantaneous gratification is the norm, then on to the next thing.
Grey
P.S.: It makes people nervous, but the reality of the matter is that I've taken 575V (across the chest [hence heart]) and I'm still here to talk about it. Actually I've taken much higher voltages, but that's another story. Is it a good idea to do so? No. Is it "safe?" No. Is it approved my medical authorities? No. But neither is skateboarding. Electricity can be dangerous. If that bothers you, take up a different hobby. If you're still going to do electronics, get over the fear. Respect electricity, but do not fear it. Fear makes for sweaty, jittery hands, which can bring about a self-fulfilling prophecy if you're reaching into a live circuit. If you do this long enough, you'll get shocked. It hurts. You cuss. Then you get on with business.
"Fear," as they said in the movie, "is not an option."
Given that the number of people involved in hands-on electronics has been declining for years, it is a trivial observation to note that scads more people cut their teeth on tubes than transistors. Yet, curiously, the myriad deaths caused by electric shock never made the newspapers. Must have been a government conspiracy to keep the problem under wraps, I guess.
Williamson amp complicated?
Sigh...
Chip amps may be easy, but there's little to be learned from building one. Perhaps they do sound better than the current consumer fad (most anything would, for that matter) but face it, most people are simply too lazy to do anything for themselves. Instantaneous gratification is the norm, then on to the next thing.
Grey
P.S.: It makes people nervous, but the reality of the matter is that I've taken 575V (across the chest [hence heart]) and I'm still here to talk about it. Actually I've taken much higher voltages, but that's another story. Is it a good idea to do so? No. Is it "safe?" No. Is it approved my medical authorities? No. But neither is skateboarding. Electricity can be dangerous. If that bothers you, take up a different hobby. If you're still going to do electronics, get over the fear. Respect electricity, but do not fear it. Fear makes for sweaty, jittery hands, which can bring about a self-fulfilling prophecy if you're reaching into a live circuit. If you do this long enough, you'll get shocked. It hurts. You cuss. Then you get on with business.
"Fear," as they said in the movie, "is not an option."
Nelson Pass said:
Peter Daniel said:I would risk a suggestion that
a reference amp is the one used to compare other amps.
At least four of 6moons reviewers are using my chip amps ( so called Gainclones) as a reference tool.
It also happens that those amps are available for diy
Somebody said that REFERENCE
is the the ultimate amplifier in performance - the absolute perfect one.
Yes, it may be. This is a way to use Reference in High End Audio.
But .... to refer
does not assume any special quality, to the object refered to.
The only thing we may require from a reference
is that it is ADEQUATE to use in the context.
That it is of any value to use this reference.
We see often a list at the end of an article or a book:
REFERENCES:
paper 1
paper 2
website 1
===================================
The thing I would want from a 'DIY Reference Amplifier' is 2 things:
1. It should be a reasonable good quality.
This makes it useful to compare with.
2. I and preferably many other should know about this amplifier.
And about quality of this amp.
This way they would know, what I am refering to.
===================================
Nelson Pass:
a reliable high quality amp with a known characteristic
Peter Daniel:
a reference amp is the one used to compare other amps
.....
as a reference tool
===================================
Both Peter Daniel and Nelson Pass has got it the same way as I do.
I can agree with this explanation, definition of a good diy reference amplifier.
This does not mean that we should have built and listened to such a reference.
It is very good if we have.
But at least we should know something about a reference.
Maybe about circuit, components, details of construction.
It is not always for comparing sound we may refer to another amplifier.
Reference -
It is like we know what 1 Volt is.
This is something we can compare with.
Something 90% know about. At least we in diy audio.
We do not need to compare with highest possible voltage (probably is no such thing)
Even if we could, this would have no meaning, as almost no one would know what that voltage is like.
It is like distance in lightyears
- we can not really know how long 1 lightyear is.
Unless we have gone that far ... at least once.
Regards
lineup
I think what the OP means by "Reference DIY amplifiers" is a design that people can understand, simulate, build and listen to, and perhaps modify.
And all that with current, easy to obtain parts (or even better, a list of equivalent parts), not some unobtanium transistors that were only manufactured 20 years ago. An estimate of build cost would also be a good idea, and a link to a PCB design/supplier (if available).
I think it's an excellent idea to list these amplifier designs, perhaps sorted by output power and class, and keep the thread pinned.
The hard part is (obviously) reaching a consensus on which designs are a reference and which are not.
Chip amps are OK as amplifiers and may sound reasonably good within their power envelope, but there is almost nothing to learn from them in terms of amplifier design.
And all that with current, easy to obtain parts (or even better, a list of equivalent parts), not some unobtanium transistors that were only manufactured 20 years ago. An estimate of build cost would also be a good idea, and a link to a PCB design/supplier (if available).
I think it's an excellent idea to list these amplifier designs, perhaps sorted by output power and class, and keep the thread pinned.
The hard part is (obviously) reaching a consensus on which designs are a reference and which are not.
Chip amps are OK as amplifiers and may sound reasonably good within their power envelope, but there is almost nothing to learn from them in terms of amplifier design.
Gigapod said:
Yes, I think so too, Gigapod
That is the idea by horus the topic starter. I am sure.
hehe
... the hard part
... amplifiers are like wine, women, cigars and cars & religion
taste is different
can be very different
and people can start to argue and fight over it and to what is the use of discussing different preferences what somebody happens to like or not... it is no use
... except as a test of our tolerance towards others
... not perfectly alike us and not doing things 'our own twisted way'
lineup
Nothing to learn from a chip amp?
Perhaps not for you but certainly a lot for me. Just three winters ago, all kitted up, the process was tempting and "do-able". Maybe completed with some questions and little problems, but not ending in a failure. Next project for me was a point to point chip amp with a vero board snubberized supply. Didn't know what a buffer was, so I built one. Then an Aleph. Then active X-overs. Then a class A pre. And now some ESP pre's. In the middle, 3 or 4 chip amps for gifts, some regulated, some not. And also plenty of speakers... line arrays, Tuba's BD pipes and some other NSB projects. Then off to Scouts where "my" kids built speakers and little single supply chip amps.
Is there a tube amp in my future? For me it's a little hard to justify. I can't get my brain around $100 per watt. That's just me. I reckon it will happen after the next TL and the Klipsch Jubilee build...
What's the point? The chip amp might be the best CURRENT entry into this hobby based on anticipated success and, most certainly, cost. I don't think I would have built anything if it wasn't a chip amp first.
For some of us, it's like that first hit of crack!
EDIT
And by the way, I am a devout reader of EVERY one of the posters in this thread, and quite a few others. You are all great sources of technical information. However, my wife would like a word with you!
Perhaps not for you but certainly a lot for me. Just three winters ago, all kitted up, the process was tempting and "do-able". Maybe completed with some questions and little problems, but not ending in a failure. Next project for me was a point to point chip amp with a vero board snubberized supply. Didn't know what a buffer was, so I built one. Then an Aleph. Then active X-overs. Then a class A pre. And now some ESP pre's. In the middle, 3 or 4 chip amps for gifts, some regulated, some not. And also plenty of speakers... line arrays, Tuba's BD pipes and some other NSB projects. Then off to Scouts where "my" kids built speakers and little single supply chip amps.
Is there a tube amp in my future? For me it's a little hard to justify. I can't get my brain around $100 per watt. That's just me. I reckon it will happen after the next TL and the Klipsch Jubilee build...
What's the point? The chip amp might be the best CURRENT entry into this hobby based on anticipated success and, most certainly, cost. I don't think I would have built anything if it wasn't a chip amp first.
For some of us, it's like that first hit of crack!
EDIT
And by the way, I am a devout reader of EVERY one of the posters in this thread, and quite a few others. You are all great sources of technical information. However, my wife would like a word with you!
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