Thanks Mark... Useful!!
Have you seen this? https://www.arvus.com/h1-d.html
Expensive but might be worth it long term?
I was thinking Apple TV 4k ----> H1-D ----> QSC 110f for processing and A/D conversion -----> random collection of amps.
Is volume control still with the Apple TV in this scenario? If so does that mean the 110f has pre-amp capabilities?
I think this would qualify as Next Level Active DSP if I can create a road map that works for me and my family...
Have you seen this? https://www.arvus.com/h1-d.html
Expensive but might be worth it long term?
I was thinking Apple TV 4k ----> H1-D ----> QSC 110f for processing and A/D conversion -----> random collection of amps.
Is volume control still with the Apple TV in this scenario? If so does that mean the 110f has pre-amp capabilities?
I think this would qualify as Next Level Active DSP if I can create a road map that works for me and my family...
Cool fizzylime, glad that helped..
Hey, i may be totally sending you in the wrong direction, as far as a 110f.
Like i said, I don't do video, but I just searched qsys for how to implement HDMI into it, and found this device ...NV-32-H.
https://www.qsys.com/resource-files...-32-h_series/q_dn_nv32h_corecapable_specs.pdf
One on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/2564066164...dCKfaOufcP7vuWhjk/Ce+0OA==|tkp:Bk9SR5qtxMK0Yw
I was just expecting it to be a bridge into a qsys Core, but I see it is also Core capable. That means this one device can route all digital traffic.
You'd still need some kind of 16 channel DAC, which may well best be found with a Core110f, but the range of possibilities expands greatly.
I need to study the NV-32-H.
And Yes, a Core110f can be considered a preamp
Hey, i may be totally sending you in the wrong direction, as far as a 110f.
Like i said, I don't do video, but I just searched qsys for how to implement HDMI into it, and found this device ...NV-32-H.
https://www.qsys.com/resource-files...-32-h_series/q_dn_nv32h_corecapable_specs.pdf
One on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/2564066164...dCKfaOufcP7vuWhjk/Ce+0OA==|tkp:Bk9SR5qtxMK0Yw
I was just expecting it to be a bridge into a qsys Core, but I see it is also Core capable. That means this one device can route all digital traffic.
You'd still need some kind of 16 channel DAC, which may well best be found with a Core110f, but the range of possibilities expands greatly.
I need to study the NV-32-H.
And Yes, a Core110f can be considered a preamp
I'll look into the NV-32-H as another option... thx. This has given me some measure of confidence that this may be a good direction to head long term. This just seems so much more of an elegant (and powerful) solution... albeit one could argue the only thing it accomplishes in my use case is a many fewer cables...
...and DSD-over HDMI...which is the format used by SACDs (stereo or multichannel), which are, subjectively, the best sound quality sources that I've heard.
What I would really like to have is an AVP that outputs at least 6 channels digitally to outboard multichannel DACs. That way, the really mediocre/bad DACs that come inside AVPs can be completely bypassed, but the decoding of the AVP and the handling of video and various channel delays is still available from the AVP.
DSD-over-HDMI is largely still an issue, however. Instead, if you use anything other than "legally blessed hardware", it will immediately convert the DSD to PCM, which sounds "not very good".
Non-blessed hardware includes anything connected to a PC or other desktop computer.
Chris
Yep, I see that. As far as I know, Qsys doesn't ever do any decoding...that's left to 3rd party peripheral devices.
Could be wrong here though,..... like said, I'm no longer into home theatre, or multichannel beyond 3ch LCR, or consumer electronics in general.
My dad has a Venu360 he is planning on using with some big horns.
I’m not sure if he had it set up with his previous LS/MWM setup or not.
after giving this perhaps too much thought and vacillation, I ruled out JRiver, as I'm currently using my laptop as a source, running it into a Schiit Audio Bifrost DAC and Freya+ preamp (along with a TT and Oppo BDP 105 as sources); it seems from what I can gather, that JRiver only works if you use it as a media player, so that's out for me.
Camilla DSP is out for similar reasons, primarily being that I'd need another streaming source or another computer to run it. I have all that, but I'm already pushing the limits of WAF without adding another computer & monitor and frankly, I'm more than put off at the need to compile the software and configure it before I even start doing the audio engineering portion. If I had fewer time consuming hobbies, was a bachelor or retired, I might be more driven to make it work, but at this moment, I don't have the bandwidth for it. Old dogs and new tricks: I don't want to learn how to put it all together + learn how to use something with a significantly less than intuitive UI.
that leaves a couple options that both fit my budget and needs: the Thomann T.Racks FIR DSP408 and a used DBX Driverack Venue360. The Venue360 has a lot going for it, namely Mac OS and iOS software to dial it it, PEQ with 12 filters at the input and 8 per output channel, an auto-eq feature, that if it worked as advertised could really potentially simplify setup, and the seller is 30 minutes away.
The Thomann T.Racks doesn't have a Mac or iOS app, meaning that I'd have to boot into Windows to configure it, which is less than ideal, but doable since I already use windows for HornRESP and to configure my Dayton Audio DSP-408. It also boasts some great features: 96khz, 24/32 bit processing, 9 bands of PEQ + FIR filters should be a boon for implementing a quasi linear phase crossover scheme and the UI is familiar-ish enough that I don't anticipate issues with configuration. I'm not entirely averse to learning new things and I would have to learn to use RePhase, but since that merely builds upon knowledge that I already have, it find it far less intimidating. As far as I can tell, the FIR DSP408 offers close to the performance of a Xilica XP, at 80% of the cost. Fighting the urge for instant gratification with the Venue360, I ordered the FIR DSP 408 yesterday. With shipping from Germany, I might have it as early as Thursday or Friday and can spend the weekend configuring it.
Chris @Cask05 I think I comprehend your zeroth order filters and have implemented them to the best that my current gear allows- I anticipate that the FIR DSP 408 should allow better implementation than the Dayton Audio DSP 408 delivers, (the latter has somewhat shallow slopes for the shelf eq filters, limiting its effectiveness). provided I can get my REW graphs better configured, can I reach out to you for troubleshooting assistance if I need it?
Thanks everyone for the input and guidance.
Camilla DSP is out for similar reasons, primarily being that I'd need another streaming source or another computer to run it. I have all that, but I'm already pushing the limits of WAF without adding another computer & monitor and frankly, I'm more than put off at the need to compile the software and configure it before I even start doing the audio engineering portion. If I had fewer time consuming hobbies, was a bachelor or retired, I might be more driven to make it work, but at this moment, I don't have the bandwidth for it. Old dogs and new tricks: I don't want to learn how to put it all together + learn how to use something with a significantly less than intuitive UI.
that leaves a couple options that both fit my budget and needs: the Thomann T.Racks FIR DSP408 and a used DBX Driverack Venue360. The Venue360 has a lot going for it, namely Mac OS and iOS software to dial it it, PEQ with 12 filters at the input and 8 per output channel, an auto-eq feature, that if it worked as advertised could really potentially simplify setup, and the seller is 30 minutes away.
The Thomann T.Racks doesn't have a Mac or iOS app, meaning that I'd have to boot into Windows to configure it, which is less than ideal, but doable since I already use windows for HornRESP and to configure my Dayton Audio DSP-408. It also boasts some great features: 96khz, 24/32 bit processing, 9 bands of PEQ + FIR filters should be a boon for implementing a quasi linear phase crossover scheme and the UI is familiar-ish enough that I don't anticipate issues with configuration. I'm not entirely averse to learning new things and I would have to learn to use RePhase, but since that merely builds upon knowledge that I already have, it find it far less intimidating. As far as I can tell, the FIR DSP408 offers close to the performance of a Xilica XP, at 80% of the cost. Fighting the urge for instant gratification with the Venue360, I ordered the FIR DSP 408 yesterday. With shipping from Germany, I might have it as early as Thursday or Friday and can spend the weekend configuring it.
Chris @Cask05 I think I comprehend your zeroth order filters and have implemented them to the best that my current gear allows- I anticipate that the FIR DSP 408 should allow better implementation than the Dayton Audio DSP 408 delivers, (the latter has somewhat shallow slopes for the shelf eq filters, limiting its effectiveness). provided I can get my REW graphs better configured, can I reach out to you for troubleshooting assistance if I need it?
Thanks everyone for the input and guidance.
Chris @Cask05
Chris, based on this above, is there substantial benefit to be gained here? I can move the tweeter down nearly 3/4 of an inch so that it overlaps the flange of the mid horn and both horns could be moved 1-1/2 inches closer to the bass horn mouth. The upper horn enclosure is more or less fixed in its dimensions due to a 15" passive radiator on the back that allows low frequency extension to 23Hz. If there were significant gains from vertical realignment of the horns, I'd consider building new enclosures. If the gains are merely splitting hairs, I'd probably put it off.
Unless you can get the port centerlines close to at most 1/2 wavelength separation at the center crossover frequency (e.g., 2 kHz = 6.8", 4 kHz = 3.4", 8 kHz = 1.7") and much more preferably within 1/4 wavelength (i.e., half the distances at the crossover frequencies just quoted), trying to get the tweeter and midrange centerlines closer together probably won't achieve very much in terms of the resulting lobing and resulting subjective sound quality in the crossover region.
Some other mind-expanding ideas to think about (i.e., outside the current "box") for blue-skying:
1) Probably the most effective change you could implement would be to use an MEH for the tweeter/midrange and possibly woofer, too, but that would likely necessitate another tweeter driver, since you'd have to cross over probably no higher than ~1.4 kHz due to the inability to get the midrange and tweeter drivers within 1/4 wavelength at crossover. You could reuse all three sets of drivers you currently have in a 3-way MEH, if you wish, using one midrange and one woofer instead of two each. The bare visual presentation of a wood MEH horn might be a bit more WAF-compliant. The only consideration would be how low your current tweeter driver can be crossed (i.e., can it be crossed as low as 1.4 kHz?).
A zip file of a "Synergy Calc" spreadsheet of a Cornwall-sized drop-in horn that would do the job is enclosed below.
2) Another approach is to use a dual-diaphragm compression driver like a BMS or B&C 1.4 or 2" to replace the tweeter/midrange. You could use a single polymer horn of sufficient mouth size, like that from a JBL Professional:
3) You could also put a grill cloth across an MEH mouth with a decorator-like fabric pattern to present nicer-to-look-at scenery. A couple of example pix to fire the imagination:
Having DSP to correct the HF absorption of virtually any cloth type (not necessarily "grill cloth") is easy to implement, much more like what you get by firing through a HT screen presents.
Chris
I've got the Thomann T.Racks FIR DSP-408 up and running, set preliminary crossover filters with PEQ instead of named filters, aiming at 400Hz and 5KHz. I did an initial sweep, generated EQ parameters and plugged them in and ran another sweep. SPL shows a null at the mid to tweeter crossover point, a slight null at the mid to woofer and another null at 58Hz and even though I generated eq at 1db, there remains room for improvement.
SPL & Phase:
Excess Phase:
Group Delay:
Spectrogram:
it's a good start, but there's room for improvement. I'm somewhat baffled by the group delay in the bass bin, I suppose I can attribute it to the passive radiator? The spike at 58Hz is presumably where the oem Lascala runs out of steam and where the sealed upper enclosure and passive radiator takes over. The one at 400 hz is more concerning, as it coincides with a phase shift at roughly the same spot, with another at the other crossover:
I'm at a loss as to how to address this, as the T.Racks doesn't have a way to invert the phase that I can see. should I flip the driver polarity- would it solve that? Edit. Found it by, (facepalm) reading the f-ing manual.
I'll share my peq settings in the next post
SPL & Phase:
Excess Phase:
Group Delay:
Spectrogram:
it's a good start, but there's room for improvement. I'm somewhat baffled by the group delay in the bass bin, I suppose I can attribute it to the passive radiator? The spike at 58Hz is presumably where the oem Lascala runs out of steam and where the sealed upper enclosure and passive radiator takes over. The one at 400 hz is more concerning, as it coincides with a phase shift at roughly the same spot, with another at the other crossover:
I'm at a loss as to how to address this, as the T.Racks doesn't have a way to invert the phase that I can see. should I flip the driver polarity- would it solve that? Edit. Found it by, (facepalm) reading the f-ing manual.
I'll share my peq settings in the next post
Last edited:
Incorrect polarity of the speaker is clearly visible on the step response; if the phase problem at 400Hz is associated with incorrect polarity of the speaker, then it makes no difference how to change it, programmatically or physically, the result will be the same.
In the meantime, I’ve managed to effectively eliminate the nulls by massaging the driver overlap in the peq and took care of the low frequency null via the input eq. I also ran into the brick wall of spousal patience with the woooooooooooiiiip! Of frequency sweeps, so it will have to wait until the next time I have the home to myself to do more measurements
@Cask05 any input you may be able to offer on resolving the mid phase would be appreciated
Drivers are a JBL 2225H, PRV D2200PH and B&C DE10. I may ultimately opt for a different mid driver to reduce overlap, but the number of 2” compression drivers that play to 400Hz and don’t require a second mortgage on the house to purchase, are small.
@Cask05 any input you may be able to offer on resolving the mid phase would be appreciated
Drivers are a JBL 2225H, PRV D2200PH and B&C DE10. I may ultimately opt for a different mid driver to reduce overlap, but the number of 2” compression drivers that play to 400Hz and don’t require a second mortgage on the house to purchase, are small.
Haha😂, yes been there!
Sounds interesting.
I'm still using the WAF Najda IIR DSP on my Multiway efforts.
FIR would be interesting.
I was using a pair of JBL2482 2" comp drivers (phenolic diaphragms) until my current Danley SH50 DIY project.
I think the tone of them is fantastic
I crossed at 350Hz with them. Upto 1200 or so. Used on a tractrix t200.
On a bigger horn they with go to 300 most reckon.
They are pretty affordable or?
At any rate, on to the subjective review of the Thomann FIR DSP 408.
The good: there’s a lot to like here: the interface is easy to use and mostly intuitive, my only problem that led to the manual was trying to find the phase inversion button on the UI: it was labeled “normal” which someone more familiar with active crossovers might have grokked, but it didn’t occur to me. A quick search of the manual fixed it. At any rate, I’ll give the UI an 8.75 for ease of use. I did spend a few evenings plugging in curves and faffing about, but that was more or less how I learn. Once I got going, everything was simple and I got it more or less sorted in a morning.
The SQ is excellent! Compared to the Dayton Audio DSP 408 that I used previously, the noise floor of the is negligible. There’s no fizz, hum, hiss or buzz that I can perceive. The 96kHz sample rate better accommodates high res streaming and paired with high efficiency horns, there’s no perceived distortion of the signal that I can hear. Having PEQ on the input is great, it allows you to flatten the driver and horn response on the output, while adding hose or room eq on the input.
Unfortunately there is just one problem and it’s potentially a big, deal breaker of a flaw for hi-fi use: the unit has a cooling fan that is by default, always running. It is LOUD. You can’t hear it when music is playing, however, when the music is off, it reads 44 db at .5 meters, a weighted on my iPhone db meter app; the noise floor of my inner city Philly home is 37db. I find this pretty problematic and there’s no documentation on how to bypass it.
On one hand, I’m tempted to open it up and simply unplug the fan, however, that would likely void any warranty. It’s a crapshoot whether it will build up significant heat at polite listening levels. If I was more adventurous, I could try to replace it with a quieter CPU fan. Another option I’m considering is I currently have it in a 2 space rack enclosure that I made for my studio from Meranti Mahogany- I remove the cover from the DSP chassis, and make a 1u enclosure for it that will increase the ventilation enough that a fan is unnecessary. While I’m out of wood in my workshop, I do have some rack ears and metal grille material; I could knock it out in a few hours in the wood shop. Given that it outperforms anything at its price point on the spec sheet, I may have a go at it.
The good: there’s a lot to like here: the interface is easy to use and mostly intuitive, my only problem that led to the manual was trying to find the phase inversion button on the UI: it was labeled “normal” which someone more familiar with active crossovers might have grokked, but it didn’t occur to me. A quick search of the manual fixed it. At any rate, I’ll give the UI an 8.75 for ease of use. I did spend a few evenings plugging in curves and faffing about, but that was more or less how I learn. Once I got going, everything was simple and I got it more or less sorted in a morning.
The SQ is excellent! Compared to the Dayton Audio DSP 408 that I used previously, the noise floor of the is negligible. There’s no fizz, hum, hiss or buzz that I can perceive. The 96kHz sample rate better accommodates high res streaming and paired with high efficiency horns, there’s no perceived distortion of the signal that I can hear. Having PEQ on the input is great, it allows you to flatten the driver and horn response on the output, while adding hose or room eq on the input.
Unfortunately there is just one problem and it’s potentially a big, deal breaker of a flaw for hi-fi use: the unit has a cooling fan that is by default, always running. It is LOUD. You can’t hear it when music is playing, however, when the music is off, it reads 44 db at .5 meters, a weighted on my iPhone db meter app; the noise floor of my inner city Philly home is 37db. I find this pretty problematic and there’s no documentation on how to bypass it.
On one hand, I’m tempted to open it up and simply unplug the fan, however, that would likely void any warranty. It’s a crapshoot whether it will build up significant heat at polite listening levels. If I was more adventurous, I could try to replace it with a quieter CPU fan. Another option I’m considering is I currently have it in a 2 space rack enclosure that I made for my studio from Meranti Mahogany- I remove the cover from the DSP chassis, and make a 1u enclosure for it that will increase the ventilation enough that a fan is unnecessary. While I’m out of wood in my workshop, I do have some rack ears and metal grille material; I could knock it out in a few hours in the wood shop. Given that it outperforms anything at its price point on the spec sheet, I may have a go at it.
Great to get a review from someone here, using it for hifi..
I read somewhere one guy had switch on pop!
I guess the Thomann FIR DSP 40 would get hotter if it is going more DSP work.
Good idea on the air around it.
That fan is designed for a unit crammed into a rack full of other hot gear and mosh pit in Calcutta sorts of ambient temps.
I have a Cerwin Vega power amp for the tapped horns with twin fans, wiring them in series dropped them to half speed and thus inaudible from sofa.
Never had a problem in 7 years (just tickling them at home audio levels).
I'd do something like that, reduce fan speed but keep some airflow.
Also a vacuum out ever couple of years would help, but I've never done that🙂
I read somewhere one guy had switch on pop!
I guess the Thomann FIR DSP 40 would get hotter if it is going more DSP work.
Good idea on the air around it.
That fan is designed for a unit crammed into a rack full of other hot gear and mosh pit in Calcutta sorts of ambient temps.
I have a Cerwin Vega power amp for the tapped horns with twin fans, wiring them in series dropped them to half speed and thus inaudible from sofa.
Never had a problem in 7 years (just tickling them at home audio levels).
I'd do something like that, reduce fan speed but keep some airflow.
Also a vacuum out ever couple of years would help, but I've never done that🙂