Yes, I understand that, but having dealt with the WE 555 and vintage Westrex and Vitaphone drivers on the very big horns, I can say that the quality of the bass becomes very important and it's hard to get the bass to match the quality of the horn.
Of course. But just how low can you really get the compression driver and horn to play? I mean with quality - quality better than the 15" cone. Even using the big W.E. 15A horn (with a mouth 1.47 meter wide) which will play low, we found that it sounded best above 200-250Hz. The cone woofers were better below that point. Unless you have some extraordinary horn and driver combo, I don't see going lower than that and retaining the quality you seek.
And do we know how those actually sound? Are they forcing the horns and drivers down that low because they think they should, or because it actually sounds better? I ask, because I was also in that school of thought. "I have big horns, horns sound best, therefore I will play them down as far as possible and get the best sound." Well, it just doesn't work that way. You have to give up what you "think" will sound good, where you "think" you should crossover - and pick a point that truly does sound good. Believe me, it was hard for me to let go of the "play 'em as low as they'll go" idea.
But what we want is great sound, right? Unfortunately the only GOTO system I remember hearing was completely ruined by a very bad crossover.Getting proper bass support for the big horns is going to be difficult, probably expensive and large. Ordinary mortal woofers will show their faults very quickly when compared to a super clean, big horn mid-bass. I'm just warning you.
You do realize how strange that sounds coming from a fellow who is going to put siren drivers on a big wooden horns for his midrange, right?
Honestly, rich people buy speakers based not on higher knowledge or wisdom, but for the high price. Bet they would want their money back if they read this thread.
There was a time when Goldmund was equally as respected.
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You do realize how strange that sounds coming from a fellow who is going to put siren drivers on a big wooden horns for his midrange, right?
Haha, well, my focus has been on the frequency range where the human ear is most sensitive. Other than that, I just want a proper and clear doof-doof! that goes together with compression drivers in speed and dispersion. Lab horns?!
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Klaus, I was thinking two of the drivers per side but you say 4, why is this?
Also can anyone give an idea of how the throat would look and what size opening we would design. Would it be 4x the surface area of a one inch driver?
Four would be awesome, but I have to say enough is enough at one point. Twin drivers are plenty to build enough pressure in the horn for some midbass. Also, the impedance on the tube amp should be 16 ohm with four of these in series. Otherwise, if not matched in impedance, the tube will burn out faster. Usually the options are 4 or 8. I have seen 16 ohm on an Epiphone JR amp, so it is not unheard of.
I had to rewire a 6v6 amp yesterday that had its two output transformers come loose during shipping. What a mess inside that box. Now it sings, but like my other EL84 amp, it is picking up electrical noise from the crappy power grid in Norway. There is noise without anything hooked on, and there is also noise from the computer. Two separate sources of ~70dB noise! When I move the mouse, the motherboard/graphics card is processing the movement and I can here it in my JA6681B.
So I am thinking about changing to Hypex amps, or Firstwatt F5 amps. I have none of this issue on a 2A3/45 amp in Sweden. And maybe something big like a 200W SS amp for the future subwoofer.
I had to rewire a 6v6 amp yesterday that had its two output transformers come loose during shipping. What a mess inside that box. Now it sings, but like my other EL84 amp, it is picking up electrical noise from the crappy power grid in Norway. There is noise without anything hooked on, and there is also noise from the computer. Two separate sources of ~70dB noise! When I move the mouse, the motherboard/graphics card is processing the movement and I can here it in my JA6681B.
So I am thinking about changing to Hypex amps, or Firstwatt F5 amps. I have none of this issue on a 2A3/45 amp in Sweden. And maybe something big like a 200W SS amp for the future subwoofer.
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Rewind seems to like his single K55 unmodified better above 200hz than the
JBL Cone. Looks like his Gota reaches down to at least 150hz with authority,
so we can assume that potent Drivers like SD-370 will cover that region with ease.
On the WE555 and 15A comment .There are only very very few people that
share your preference of using the 15A only above 200hz.
Silbatone demonstrate their setup without any high pass filter and people are
in general floored by the effortless bass reproduction. Most people criticize
the upper mids region not the bass.
Klaus
Yep, SD-370, or whatever I have, goes down to 80Hz, but weakly. Still going strong at ~120-150Hz, by ear, and the setting should be correct since I used the Minidsp. The JBL seem okay just down to 150Hz. It plays lower, down to 80Hz, but I would prefer a subwoofer that would not sound as strained with bass frequencies.
Bear, thanks for the tip about the JA6681B and the Aleph J's. 6moons compared it to a Fi 45 amp - 45 tubes are my current favourite tube amp - and it was close. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt3/alephj.html
The 6V6 and the El84 sound good too, in a simpler, old school, more familiar way. Familiar in the sense that many rock bands use these tubes in their guitar amps. So I grew up listening to EL84 on standard home stereos.
Bear, thanks for the tip about the JA6681B and the Aleph J's. 6moons compared it to a Fi 45 amp - 45 tubes are my current favourite tube amp - and it was close. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt3/alephj.html
The 6V6 and the El84 sound good too, in a simpler, old school, more familiar way. Familiar in the sense that many rock bands use these tubes in their guitar amps. So I grew up listening to EL84 on standard home stereos.
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That was just to say it can compete with an Onken even in higher spl situations.
For home use I would not ever use two drivers on one horn. What for if the SPL is not needed and the distortion stays below 2%?
A Y adapter setup is not without problems although it is promoted by Goto. No wonder they do that because that way they can sell
two more of those outrageously expensive drivers. I would not be surprised if one driver sounds better than two.
Klaus
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I bet the Y adapter can be improved. Right now it looks like a sewage pipe. It would be a shame if someone mistook it for a toilet. 
I am fairly certain the y adapter have a positive effect on bass, after compairing it to a single K55. But it was not a very good comparison. The day I feel like swapping drivers back and fourth, I can tell you.
3GGG, time to collect my second pair. Which clown did you buy from?
I am fairly certain the y adapter have a positive effect on bass, after compairing it to a single K55. But it was not a very good comparison. The day I feel like swapping drivers back and fourth, I can tell you.
3GGG, time to collect my second pair. Which clown did you buy from?
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I bet the Y adapter can be improved. Right now it looks like a sewage pipe. It would be a shame if someone mistook it for a toilet.
I am fairly certain the y adapter have a positive effect on bass, after compairing it to a single K55. But it was not a very good comparison. The day I feel like swapping drivers back and fourth, I can tell you.
I would just make comparisons between one and two SD-370.
.
One SD-370 sound even clearer, the horn being completely straight, but I could swear I heard more more powerful midbass using two. Vocals are incredible. I switched to TPL instead of a compression driver tweeter above 2kHz. Not as fun and dynamic, but much smoother now. I can even use it for watching low-res netflix. The detail is unreal. I hear vulcans as if they were in my room. Our tiny 27" screen does not make it just, it just doesn't fit. I should get a 4K 80" tv to match this sound.
It is a little straining for the ears, because it is SO detailed, but not as straining as a compression driver tweeter. I will restrict the use of compression driver tweeters for very expressive jazz music, and such.
It was not the SD-370 that was straining my ears, at least not as much as the compression driver tweeter.
I will have to mod it the SD-370, because it does not go below 180Hz with much authorization.
I was testing a friends 10" direct radiator subwoofer crossed at 80Hz to a pair of line array speakers this weekend. They had a very nice musicality to them, especially in the midrange, and they swallowed any sharpness, but also a lot of detail, that I can hear very vividly in my own setup.
We used a digital active crossover, and it made me think a subwoofer should not be crossed higher than 80-100Hz. So the mod of the SD-380 is a necessity for this to work.
It is a little straining for the ears, because it is SO detailed, but not as straining as a compression driver tweeter. I will restrict the use of compression driver tweeters for very expressive jazz music, and such.
It was not the SD-370 that was straining my ears, at least not as much as the compression driver tweeter.
I will have to mod it the SD-370, because it does not go below 180Hz with much authorization.
I was testing a friends 10" direct radiator subwoofer crossed at 80Hz to a pair of line array speakers this weekend. They had a very nice musicality to them, especially in the midrange, and they swallowed any sharpness, but also a lot of detail, that I can hear very vividly in my own setup.
We used a digital active crossover, and it made me think a subwoofer should not be crossed higher than 80-100Hz. So the mod of the SD-380 is a necessity for this to work.
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Well, yes and no. It depends on what you are playing. I need the smoothness I get from a TPL-150 above 2-3kHz. I could also use a true ribbon, but those does not kick in until above 3500Hz. Below that they are very boring and less involving, less dynamic, or what you could call it. The TPL-150 also lack this ability to involve, but is better at it than a true ribbon. Above 2-3kHz, it is less important. It does put a smile to my face when I hear the compression driver tweeter again, with the right kind of music, after a long period with the TPL-150.
I am having great trouble deciding what is best.
About my subwoofer testing, after I tried my friends 10" sub, a 23kg little beast of a sub, I went ahead and tested the JBL 12" 2204Hz low-midrange speaker as a sub from 60Hz up to 150Hz, i.e. to the point where I feel comfortable with the unmodded SD-370, and it was way too high for a subwoofer. Not higher than 100Hz.
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If the SD-370 mod fail to integrate with the labhorn, I may find a use for my 2204H after all, between 80Hz and 200Hz.
I did some tests with the JA6681B, with and without a Beyma 1" at 4 to 8Khz. There was a difference, in favor of having a tweeter. You could probably not get the same positive effect using EQ with the JA6681B. Unless you would use another pair of JA6681B as tweeters. That would work, but I think I prefer a TPL instead of the extra pair of compression driver tweeters. I have already tested with a Beyma 1" and I don't see why the JA6681B should be that different. The Beyma 1" I use is was the smoothest among 5 other compression driver tweeters. In order to test the JA6681B as a tweeter, with its 1.3XX" throat, I will have to make a new horn for it, but it is low on my list of priorities, as I am pretty satisfied with the TPL.
Using the JA6681B from 600-10kHz will reduce crossover points, and I can appreciate that sometimes, but not at the cost of detail. In the end I prefer drivers specialized for their frequency range.
I did some tests with the JA6681B, with and without a Beyma 1" at 4 to 8Khz. There was a difference, in favor of having a tweeter. You could probably not get the same positive effect using EQ with the JA6681B. Unless you would use another pair of JA6681B as tweeters. That would work, but I think I prefer a TPL instead of the extra pair of compression driver tweeters. I have already tested with a Beyma 1" and I don't see why the JA6681B should be that different. The Beyma 1" I use is was the smoothest among 5 other compression driver tweeters. In order to test the JA6681B as a tweeter, with its 1.3XX" throat, I will have to make a new horn for it, but it is low on my list of priorities, as I am pretty satisfied with the TPL.
Using the JA6681B from 600-10kHz will reduce crossover points, and I can appreciate that sometimes, but not at the cost of detail. In the end I prefer drivers specialized for their frequency range.
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