Cough, cough. I wasn't going to go there, because people look at you sideways when you praise a powered plastic P.A. speaker for its sound quality. But since you have plowed ahead, I'll follow in your wake.
...The K8 is one of the rare speakers that has startled me into thinking someone was talking right beside me. That's happened with FM radio voices and also with a live mic. Not many speakers do that.
Wow, it's nice to hear that I wasn't totally off base. I didn't notice the K8's sounding quite *that* good, but hey, my listening room is far from ideal.
That said, I found the K8's just didn't sound "beautiful." I guess I like a bit of euphonic sweetening in the sound, which would explain why I like vinyl and triode amps, while many very knowledgeable listeners think that's just stupid. That's a taste thing, and...
@tcpip, that is where the difficulties lie. How can you know what someone else's tastes will be re: this kind of thing? Super-accurate but possibly 'cold' sound? Or not-so-accurate but a 'warm' sound?
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PS -
DPH, have you heard the QSC K8 speakers? If yes, how do you think those JBL LSR308 monitors compare?
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No, in this case, the source is not going to be a CD player, because she has very few discs. She'll probably be either keeping copies of digital audio files on hard drives, or listening to streaming audio over the Net, I reckon. Maybe, if she falls in love with music, she'll start buying CDs later, and then she can think of a disc spinner.
I can see where you're coming from.
But honestly, since this will be her first good audio system, and she's comfortable with the financial risks involved, I'm just going to encourage her to listen and decide for herself. She's perfectly capable of handling the usual consumer-support issues like getting the dealer to honour a warranty if there's a fault, etc. If she likes a passive speaker pair, she can go that way and we can help point her to the amplifiers to try.
There's only so much one can do to de-risk a friend against her choices, and she understands that. (Thank God for old and sensible friends.
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Actually, I'm not worried about this issue at all. I'm not choosing for someone. I'm just setting up things to guide someone to choose for herself. I'm only going to do technical sanity checks like "get half-way decent stands" or "you'll need X cables of Y type", or inputs about speaker placement. Other than that, it'll be her choice. I've already told her about Rogue Audio -- she may go for a valve amp, I wouldn't know. So, her speaker choices too will be hers alone.
Are you referring to the B2031? They're supposed to be superb even if you ignore the ridiculous Behringer-style pricing.
I have not directly compared the K8 to the Behringers, so can only say I liked the K8 better without an A/B. I have done A/B tests (blind) between the K10 and the new JBL Eon 10. Easy to pick which is which, but almost impossible to pick which is better. That is surprising. I still like the K8 better than any of the 10" woofer PA speakers. And I'm a fan of big woofers.
Rongon, I think the "electronic" sound you were hearing is the DSP, not the amps. All these new little speakers use DSP, and they all have a slightly processed sound. The Focal do NOT have that sound, at all. Very sweet, very natural. They should be, considering the price difference.
As for Class-D, I'm going to disagree with Chris. I've owned, built and sold quite a few Class-D amps and they are better than just about any Class-AB amp I've heard. Yes, Class-A tube or sand can sound better, but Class-D is catching up. That's not what is holding back a system.
Rongon, I think the "electronic" sound you were hearing is the DSP, not the amps. All these new little speakers use DSP, and they all have a slightly processed sound. The Focal do NOT have that sound, at all. Very sweet, very natural. They should be, considering the price difference.
As for Class-D, I'm going to disagree with Chris. I've owned, built and sold quite a few Class-D amps and they are better than just about any Class-AB amp I've heard. Yes, Class-A tube or sand can sound better, but Class-D is catching up. That's not what is holding back a system.
Those Focals i suggested earlier use Class D for the bass and A/B for treble .
As for Class D i think a lot of " traditionalists " have a difficult time accepting them ( no offence intended to anyone ) and letting go of older more conventional designs , i know i did , but the performance
of some ( subjectively ) for me,compared to some of the " monsters " i've used/owned over the years, amazes me especially when cost is factored in .
As for Class D i think a lot of " traditionalists " have a difficult time accepting them ( no offence intended to anyone ) and letting go of older more conventional designs , i know i did , but the performance
of some ( subjectively ) for me,compared to some of the " monsters " i've used/owned over the years, amazes me especially when cost is factored in .
That is kinda back to front on almost every level.
Balanced connections by their very design eliminate any interference the cable may pick up.
With balanced connections cable length only becomes an issue if it exceeds 50m or more, I've seen line level signal pass through 100m+ without problems although I wouldn't recommend that for microphones or cartridges. Speaker cable length is an issue almost regardless of their length.
I've seen decent balanced cables survive in studios and touring for years. That equates to a few human lifetimes of domestic use.
There are reasons that were analogue signal integrity is critical you will find almost exclusively balanced lines.
Actually, home use may be exactly the problem you haven't seen. At live gigs, you lay out the cables and put gaffer tape over them. You check them after every show so you aren't using a bad cable (having done live sound myself for years). The issue at home is that they are laid out and are constantly exposed to wear without gaffer tape to hold them down. I can't think of anyone who wants a balanced mic cable on the floor of their listening room! It's larger than a #16 GA speaker wire and much less flexible unless you go for an expensive, but wonderful Canaire cable.
Wear effects aside now, Charles Darwin, the signal levels in a balanced cable are still on the order of mV for quiet but audible music details. It doesn't take much interfering signal to generate those levels. From what? Any computer or laptop, a charging smart phone or tablet. Some new LED lamps. All these things are generally not found at a live sound gig, but they are extremely common in the average home.
I'm not saying doom and gloom here, but you have to accept that these things are a possibility. Besides, home balanced gear is often very high impedance. The pro stuff I was used to was not 600R, but it was lower impedance than the home stuff. In servicing some of the home studios out there, I have run into older mic cables that were straight up defective or intermittent due to being stepped on over a period of years. The one signal (aside from a TT) that you shouldn't run long distance, given a choice, is the preamp to amplifier signal run. It's just not good design practice unless you are checking your gear and cables (Pano) every week. Of course, a live sound event is so far removed from a static home setup that you shouldn't read across those things that work in live sound. Not for long term use anyway.
I expect some will disagree with me on that, and that is fine. But you can not say there aren't some of these issues I brought up in play. At least consider this instead of believing that you will not run into these issues. Remember, you are recommending a system for a non-technical person to live with.
I almost forgot. Powered speakers need a signal cable as well as a power plug to each one. That alone might be a big problem.
-Chris
Wear effects aside now, Charles Darwin, the signal levels in a balanced cable are still on the order of mV for quiet but audible music details. It doesn't take much interfering signal to generate those levels. From what? Any computer or laptop, a charging smart phone or tablet. Some new LED lamps. All these things are generally not found at a live sound gig, but they are extremely common in the average home.
I'm not saying doom and gloom here, but you have to accept that these things are a possibility. Besides, home balanced gear is often very high impedance. The pro stuff I was used to was not 600R, but it was lower impedance than the home stuff. In servicing some of the home studios out there, I have run into older mic cables that were straight up defective or intermittent due to being stepped on over a period of years. The one signal (aside from a TT) that you shouldn't run long distance, given a choice, is the preamp to amplifier signal run. It's just not good design practice unless you are checking your gear and cables (Pano) every week. Of course, a live sound event is so far removed from a static home setup that you shouldn't read across those things that work in live sound. Not for long term use anyway.
I expect some will disagree with me on that, and that is fine. But you can not say there aren't some of these issues I brought up in play. At least consider this instead of believing that you will not run into these issues. Remember, you are recommending a system for a non-technical person to live with.
I almost forgot. Powered speakers need a signal cable as well as a power plug to each one. That alone might be a big problem.
-Chris
The main reason for the existence of balanced lines is their immunity to interference.
I had terrible interference problems from an old (then new) flat screen monitor which made it impossible to use the computer and the stereo at the same time and I could always hear the fridge kicking in.
Every hint of noise disappeared the moment I eliminated the last single ended connection in my stereo. I've been using the same balanced cables for 15 years or more at home without any faults or problems whatsoever.
As for non-technical people I find XLRs a lot easier than other solutions because a male is always an output and female an input. Foolproof really.
I had terrible interference problems from an old (then new) flat screen monitor which made it impossible to use the computer and the stereo at the same time and I could always hear the fridge kicking in.
Every hint of noise disappeared the moment I eliminated the last single ended connection in my stereo. I've been using the same balanced cables for 15 years or more at home without any faults or problems whatsoever.
As for non-technical people I find XLRs a lot easier than other solutions because a male is always an output and female an input. Foolproof really.
If she is serious, and doesn't mind traveling about 5 hours north in Vancouver, BC there are many more (and better) hifi shops. And the US dollar is very strong vs the Canadian dollar right now.
Seattle (about 3 hours north of Portland) also might have better shops...magnolia at Best Buy will have B&W, etc but they won't know anything about them and won't have good amps to demo them with. They are also less likely to bargain on the price.
It's been a while since I've been to Portland so Iam not familiar with the hifi shops there.
Seattle (about 3 hours north of Portland) also might have better shops...magnolia at Best Buy will have B&W, etc but they won't know anything about them and won't have good amps to demo them with. They are also less likely to bargain on the price.
It's been a while since I've been to Portland so Iam not familiar with the hifi shops there.
Yes, this is the sort of impression I too am getting, sitting in India and Googling for dealers. There are good, knowledgeable dealers there, I'm sure, like Echo Audio and one or two others, but I am not sure she'll get to hear all the models we're talking about.
I'd like it if she could at least get a chance to listen to 2-3 really top-notch systems as part of her exposure to systems and their sound. It would change her thinking forever.
Let me see what she finds. Maybe she is open to a Seattle trip sometime too...
Oh, I'm trying
But she probably has little free time. She's a hot-shot senior scientist at a giant company, plus a wife and a mom to two great kids... You can imagine.I like the looks on the Oppo HA-1, it's off on the price point but it's a dac and pre-amp.
https://www.oppodigital.com/headphone-amplifier-ha-1/
https://www.oppodigital.com/headphone-amplifier-ha-1/
Hi Charles Darwin,
And as a last resort, I took a two story jingle studio from balanced to single ended. That got rid of their radio interference problems. It also make "0 VU" read the same on all their equipment. That was over ten years ago - 20 in fact. They are running fine.
Balanced is easier to get signals from one place to another with less (didn't say no) interference than a simple singled ended line, but that isn't always cast in stone. Had a music recording studio that going to full balanced for everything (outboard gear included) didn't help. Even tried the pin 1 problem fixes. Moving the 24 track did the trick.
So while using a balanced line normally can help, that isn't always the case. The doubled shielded single ended cables are also good medicine. Was your equipment on two different phases by chance?
-Chris
And as a last resort, I took a two story jingle studio from balanced to single ended. That got rid of their radio interference problems. It also make "0 VU" read the same on all their equipment. That was over ten years ago - 20 in fact. They are running fine.
Balanced is easier to get signals from one place to another with less (didn't say no) interference than a simple singled ended line, but that isn't always cast in stone. Had a music recording studio that going to full balanced for everything (outboard gear included) didn't help. Even tried the pin 1 problem fixes. Moving the 24 track did the trick.
So while using a balanced line normally can help, that isn't always the case. The doubled shielded single ended cables are also good medicine. Was your equipment on two different phases by chance?
-Chris
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