Hi all,
I have a friend who wants to start her journey into good music systems at home. She lives in Portland, and has never had a good audio system before. She's absolutely the other extreme from DIY -- she'd be happy if I bought and set up her system for her.
Which I wouldn't have done even if I was living in Portland. (I live in Bombay.)
She's in her forties, and has an eclectic taste in music. Everything from classic rock to Indian classical to western classical to film music to jazz... can't help narrow things there.
She will set up the system in a small room, so her speakers will be perhaps five feet apart, and she'll be sitting 6-8 feet from them when she listens.
Since she doesn't know anything about audio systems, I'm in the unenviable position of being a remote advisor, WhatsApp'ing with her from half a world away. And I can identify with the opinions of Doug Self, Bob Cordell, Peter Aczel, Seigfried Linkwitz, NwAvGuy, and in general any other engineer who can design electronics, knows how to measure distortion and believes in objective, measurable accuracy in addition to listening tests.
I was thinking of the following setup for her:
The first thing to be selected will be speakers. The electronics can be selected after that.
Help needed: Which brands of good speakers are available in Portland, and would you recommend that I ask my friend to audition?
I was thinking of the following:
So, can some Portland dwellers please suggest dealers, and can all of you please suggest brands and models of speakers, or anything else which will help my friend choose?
I'm hoping to give her a shortlist of half a dozen speakers which she can audition by carrying her sampler CD with her to various dealers.
If any of you feel like letting her come to your places and listen to your systems, that'll be double-superb too. She has had very little exposure to good audio systems -- the only transducer of any quality which she's probably listened through is a pair of Etymotic IEM. Any exposure would help her a lot.
As you can see, I'm running a bit blind here. All help will be greatly appreciated.
I have a friend who wants to start her journey into good music systems at home. She lives in Portland, and has never had a good audio system before. She's absolutely the other extreme from DIY -- she'd be happy if I bought and set up her system for her.
Which I wouldn't have done even if I was living in Portland. (I live in Bombay.)She's in her forties, and has an eclectic taste in music. Everything from classic rock to Indian classical to western classical to film music to jazz... can't help narrow things there.
She will set up the system in a small room, so her speakers will be perhaps five feet apart, and she'll be sitting 6-8 feet from them when she listens.
Since she doesn't know anything about audio systems, I'm in the unenviable position of being a remote advisor, WhatsApp'ing with her from half a world away. And I can identify with the opinions of Doug Self, Bob Cordell, Peter Aczel, Seigfried Linkwitz, NwAvGuy, and in general any other engineer who can design electronics, knows how to measure distortion and believes in objective, measurable accuracy in addition to listening tests.
I was thinking of the following setup for her:
- an excellent pair of standmount speakers on stands. Speaker budget is "a few thousand dollars" including stands
- an integrated amp (solid-state): within $1000?
- a digital media player: within $500?
- an audio rack: within $300?
- interconnects and speakers from Blue Jeans (the only good, non-audiophile-verbiage cable brand I know): order from their Website or Amazon.com
- any sensibly priced non-audiophile, well-engineered power strip for mains, and similarly engineered power cables
The first thing to be selected will be speakers. The electronics can be selected after that.
Help needed: Which brands of good speakers are available in Portland, and would you recommend that I ask my friend to audition?
I was thinking of the following:
- B&W: maybe the 805 D3, the CM6/CM5: Magnolia AV at Best Buy branches?
- Dynaudio: Emit M10, Contour S 1.4 LE: where are they available?
- Sonus Faber: no idea about good recent models; there are 2-3 dealers in Portland
- Focal: no idea about models or dealers?
So, can some Portland dwellers please suggest dealers, and can all of you please suggest brands and models of speakers, or anything else which will help my friend choose?
I'm hoping to give her a shortlist of half a dozen speakers which she can audition by carrying her sampler CD with her to various dealers.
If any of you feel like letting her come to your places and listen to your systems, that'll be double-superb too. She has had very little exposure to good audio systems -- the only transducer of any quality which she's probably listened through is a pair of Etymotic IEM. Any exposure would help her a lot.
As you can see, I'm running a bit blind here. All help will be greatly appreciated.
With no disrespect i consider the budget to be completely wrong . I have always considered that for any budget the biggest percentage should be spent on the source not the speakers.
The argument against this being the speakers as the final part of the chain should be the best part of the system , the other side of the coin being garbage in garbage out a great pair of speakers aren't going to make a poor source sound better but are more likely to show its shortcomings .
So for say $5000 source $2000 amp $1500 speakers $1000 cables/stands $500 .
It's much simpler to decide a source and then match the amp /speakers accordingly .
I personally think she would be better off taking her taste in music to a good dealer ( possibility with the recommendation of any Portland residents ) and listen to a selection of equipment until she finds the kind of sound she likes rather than suggestions from afar .
Buying simply because someone said so is like going out and buying kit made up of the latest 5 star reviews and expecting it to work well together let alone actually enjoy the sound it makes.
The argument against this being the speakers as the final part of the chain should be the best part of the system , the other side of the coin being garbage in garbage out a great pair of speakers aren't going to make a poor source sound better but are more likely to show its shortcomings .
So for say $5000 source $2000 amp $1500 speakers $1000 cables/stands $500 .
It's much simpler to decide a source and then match the amp /speakers accordingly .
I personally think she would be better off taking her taste in music to a good dealer ( possibility with the recommendation of any Portland residents ) and listen to a selection of equipment until she finds the kind of sound she likes rather than suggestions from afar .
Buying simply because someone said so is like going out and buying kit made up of the latest 5 star reviews and expecting it to work well together let alone actually enjoy the sound it makes.
You're sending her to DEALERS to audition foreign MONKEY COFFINS that cost THOUSANDS? Some friend! Some Linkwitz fan!
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ALMA'14/Sound_quality.htm
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ALMA'14/Sound_quality.htm
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Hi Konzentr8,
I got to say that I completely disagree with you on this. My long experience in the audio field also disagrees with your ideas.
Hi tcpip,
Too bad I'm in a different country as well. You seem to be on the right track there, but I would increase the budget on the amplifier a little. Ignore the audio rack. It is furniture and she will have to look at it every single day. $300 won't cut it for her. Leave that out of the budget and call it room decor. Use the $300 on the amp.
Don't buy expensive cables, you're again on the right track. Fine stranded copper in a zip cord format, about 16 gauge will do very nicely, and its flexible (easier to hide). You will probably have to spend more on a media player to get decent sound out of it. A $500 media player will make sound, but she is on the cusp for great sound. May as well get there.
Tell her to listen for the most natural sounding stuff. She will be able to sort this out if she trusts her own instincts. She might want to look at PSB and some similar brands. Used speakers are fine too. PSB Stratus Gold speakers are going used for $800 ~ $1,200 a pair. They were $2,500 when new. These are large, but they are so large they disappear in the room when placed near the wall. Keep in mind that tower speakers take the same floor space as speakers on stands, but they use all that volume for much better sound.
Most good speakers will really show electronics that doesn't cut it. Not a bad thing at all.
Overall, you are giving your friend good advice. Stick to your guns!
-Chris
-Chris
I got to say that I completely disagree with you on this. My long experience in the audio field also disagrees with your ideas.
Hi tcpip,
Too bad I'm in a different country as well. You seem to be on the right track there, but I would increase the budget on the amplifier a little. Ignore the audio rack. It is furniture and she will have to look at it every single day. $300 won't cut it for her. Leave that out of the budget and call it room decor. Use the $300 on the amp.
Don't buy expensive cables, you're again on the right track. Fine stranded copper in a zip cord format, about 16 gauge will do very nicely, and its flexible (easier to hide). You will probably have to spend more on a media player to get decent sound out of it. A $500 media player will make sound, but she is on the cusp for great sound. May as well get there.
Tell her to listen for the most natural sounding stuff. She will be able to sort this out if she trusts her own instincts. She might want to look at PSB and some similar brands. Used speakers are fine too. PSB Stratus Gold speakers are going used for $800 ~ $1,200 a pair. They were $2,500 when new. These are large, but they are so large they disappear in the room when placed near the wall. Keep in mind that tower speakers take the same floor space as speakers on stands, but they use all that volume for much better sound.
Most good speakers will really show electronics that doesn't cut it. Not a bad thing at all.
Overall, you are giving your friend good advice. Stick to your guns!
-Chris
-Chris
She would love the KEF LS50, and it's even available in a range of colors.
http://www.kef.com/html/en/showroom/flagship_hi-fi_series/LS50/overview/
+ 1 sort of.
Long experience has shown that far too many spend too much on the speakers leaving the front end short-changed.
Everything is important.
You might be amazed at what can come out of modest good sounding speakers when driven by a good front end with good recordings.
Now it is true that the speaker tends to dominate the voicing of the system. This is because speakers are, in relation to the ideal, not very good. I estimate 10-20% of the way there now. Speakers are all about the compromises the designer chooses. Because of this one can have 2 equally valid speakers that sound quite different.
Also, a speaker & its amplifier have to be considered a system, one cannot be choosen without considering the other.
Do keep in mind that this is diy forum, most have built at least part of their hifi.
dave
Hi anatech as i said i meant no disrespect to the OP just my advice based on my own long experience in the audio field .
I do also think different countries have different priorities , being from the uk the system building method i mentioned is one that has been widely used here for years with maybe equal amounts spent since the onset of the " digital " and internet age.
Over the pond it's always been speakers get priority either way i don't agree with a " several thousand dollar " set of speakers being well matched to a $500 media player .
I do however agree with rayma's post as a possibility
I do also think different countries have different priorities , being from the uk the system building method i mentioned is one that has been widely used here for years with maybe equal amounts spent since the onset of the " digital " and internet age.
Over the pond it's always been speakers get priority either way i don't agree with a " several thousand dollar " set of speakers being well matched to a $500 media player .
I do however agree with rayma's post as a possibility
Hi Dave,
Yes, but I also know what great sound comes from better speakers and electronics. You cannot skimp on the loudspeakers!
I sincerely doubt she would be impressed with a full range speaker system compared to real products she can buy. But at least you are somewhat right in that the speaker and amplifier setup is a system. You've got to stay with good equipment if you expect any more than so-so okay sound. At 41, she is ready for a really nice system. The KEF speakers suggested by rayma would suit the application far better than any DIY setup she could possibly involve herself in. That's why I have not suggested a repair-old-equipment option. It doesn't suit the application.
Too bad she isn't a little higher in $$, as the new high end Marantz is also excellent. It would suit any of the better commercial speakers out there.
-Chris
Yes, but I also know what great sound comes from better speakers and electronics. You cannot skimp on the loudspeakers!
As tcpip pointed out in his first post, this woman is not DIY at all. She is unlikely to be comfortable with what you are suggesting, and for very good reasons. As DIY folks, we also know what really is good out in the market as we are comparing our work to that which can be bought.
I sincerely doubt she would be impressed with a full range speaker system compared to real products she can buy. But at least you are somewhat right in that the speaker and amplifier setup is a system. You've got to stay with good equipment if you expect any more than so-so okay sound. At 41, she is ready for a really nice system. The KEF speakers suggested by rayma would suit the application far better than any DIY setup she could possibly involve herself in. That's why I have not suggested a repair-old-equipment option. It doesn't suit the application.
Too bad she isn't a little higher in $$, as the new high end Marantz is also excellent. It would suit any of the better commercial speakers out there.
-Chris
It's true that excellent gear can sound mediocre in some systems.
However, mediocre gear will never sound great, perhaps at best only passable.
Hi Chris yes i know hence my remark of a several thousand dollar set of speakers being used with a 500 dollar source ... anyway enough " argument " we all have differing opinions as to equipment and budget allocation so in keeping with the OP's original request for suggestions the Focal Aria 906 is an excellent speaker worth an audition ( with a decent source of course )
)
Hi Konzentr8,
I know it's a foreign concept to DIYer's, but this person needs to buy things that sound good as is. "Can be made to ..." anything, is not going to work.
I can think of all kinds of products that I can make sound excellent. But none of this stuff is "less expensive". In fact, it was all expensive when new. There's no getting around cheaper options when the DIY element is removed from the equation. You have to accept that she has a reasonable budget and the intentions are clear. You need good speakers, and with good electronics (not the most expensive, but not cheap either), it will sound really good. You're not going to get there with a budget line of anything.
I deal with folks who buy "sounds good for the $$". That stuff is junk. NAD falls into that category without question. Early Creek would be judged similarly. If it's budget, economics dictate the design and construction. Don't worry, many Japanese and North American lines are in that boat too. If you want good design and quality sound, you're going to have to pay for it. The budget above reflects that.
-Chris
I know it's a foreign concept to DIYer's, but this person needs to buy things that sound good as is. "Can be made to ..." anything, is not going to work.
I can think of all kinds of products that I can make sound excellent. But none of this stuff is "less expensive". In fact, it was all expensive when new. There's no getting around cheaper options when the DIY element is removed from the equation. You have to accept that she has a reasonable budget and the intentions are clear. You need good speakers, and with good electronics (not the most expensive, but not cheap either), it will sound really good. You're not going to get there with a budget line of anything.
I deal with folks who buy "sounds good for the $$". That stuff is junk. NAD falls into that category without question. Early Creek would be judged similarly. If it's budget, economics dictate the design and construction. Don't worry, many Japanese and North American lines are in that boat too. If you want good design and quality sound, you're going to have to pay for it. The budget above reflects that.
-Chris
What current receiver/amp do you think would go well with the KEF LS50?
I'm not current on them.
" if you want good design and a quality sound you have to pay for it "
Can't argue with that statement ... as for Creek many years ago i had one matched with Mordaunt Short MS 10 's . Can't remember exact model 4240 maybe ? black wood case with the green lettering , lasted about 2 months and the replacement 4 months it was about that time i stopped listening to magazine reviews
Can't argue with that statement ... as for Creek many years ago i had one matched with Mordaunt Short MS 10 's . Can't remember exact model 4240 maybe ? black wood case with the green lettering , lasted about 2 months and the replacement 4 months it was about that time i stopped listening to magazine reviews
Hi rayma,
To be honest with you, I'm not up on what receivers are good anymore either. So many have become name plates on challenged product. I can say that Sony is pretty much all class D now. No point in going that route.
Denon, Marantz and Esoteric (sp?) from Teac appear to have good upper end product. New McIntosh, but they are dear. Cyrus is excellent, but again dear. I wouldn't go anywhere near Pioneer or Technics either. They sure don't make product like they did in the late 70's to early-mid 80's anymore, do they?
Any suggestions for or against rayma?
One thing that's for sure with speakers. If you want any bass, the box will be large compared to a bookshelf speaker. But I am crazy enough to use the PSB Stratus gold speakers in a smaller room than they are in right now. They still deliver something you just can't get with a bookshelf speaker. I choose not to give up sound quality just because a room is small-ish. Royd Prior's would work, but they would be a minimum I would accept.
-Chris
To be honest with you, I'm not up on what receivers are good anymore either. So many have become name plates on challenged product. I can say that Sony is pretty much all class D now. No point in going that route.
Denon, Marantz and Esoteric (sp?) from Teac appear to have good upper end product. New McIntosh, but they are dear. Cyrus is excellent, but again dear. I wouldn't go anywhere near Pioneer or Technics either. They sure don't make product like they did in the late 70's to early-mid 80's anymore, do they?
Any suggestions for or against rayma?
One thing that's for sure with speakers. If you want any bass, the box will be large compared to a bookshelf speaker. But I am crazy enough to use the PSB Stratus gold speakers in a smaller room than they are in right now. They still deliver something you just can't get with a bookshelf speaker. I choose not to give up sound quality just because a room is small-ish. Royd Prior's would work, but they would be a minimum I would accept.
-Chris
Before downsizing for a move last summer, I had several mid-line Pioneer receivers like the SX-636
that seemed ok. But I decided to let them go, and keep only the HK430 receivers. Those go well with
my Dyna A25 speakers, for video and background music use. They were the sweet spot in the HK line,
as were the A25s for Dynaco.
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