Why you cannot factor in the time? You can, there's man made cars, man made furniture, anything.
"The people who are buying them don't care, its the material value, craftsmanship and overall quality of the product they value."
Bose have 0 material value, 0 craftsmanship and 0 overall quality and sells for 3k$. It must take them about 5 minutes to build these speakers.
Then you have a guy who spent 200 hours, so craftsmanship is there, material value is low at about 500$, overall quality should be average.
I mean, when you change a 5$ part on your car, the guy will still charge you 60$/hour for it and will charge the full hour.
You can see several outstanding DIY designs on the web for people with huge budget. Like a picture floating around about a 1 million $ personal home theater. I'm quite sure the parts cost is well under 100k$, it's two big array.
Time is money, it's not because we are making speaker cabinets that this statement is now false. Professional contractors will charge the time to build speaker cabinets for bars, clubs or anything else. I can safely say that alot of users here know more about audio than these professionals, so why our time is worth less?
"The people who are buying them don't care, its the material value, craftsmanship and overall quality of the product they value."
Bose have 0 material value, 0 craftsmanship and 0 overall quality and sells for 3k$. It must take them about 5 minutes to build these speakers.
Then you have a guy who spent 200 hours, so craftsmanship is there, material value is low at about 500$, overall quality should be average.
I mean, when you change a 5$ part on your car, the guy will still charge you 60$/hour for it and will charge the full hour.
You can see several outstanding DIY designs on the web for people with huge budget. Like a picture floating around about a 1 million $ personal home theater. I'm quite sure the parts cost is well under 100k$, it's two big array.
Time is money, it's not because we are making speaker cabinets that this statement is now false. Professional contractors will charge the time to build speaker cabinets for bars, clubs or anything else. I can safely say that alot of users here know more about audio than these professionals, so why our time is worth less?
Show me an honest salesman 
Most likely these loudspeakers will be sold locally where people
can hear it in action. Who buys speakers without auditioning?
I wouldn't buy any speaker without hearing it, but you never know
how people behave. You might as well place the worm on the fishing
pole {Ebay} and see if you catch a fish.
Labor? Imagine how easy it is to build a 2 way or 3 way loudspeaker
with 2 or 3 drivers in a small box. Then tackle a project where
you have 26 drivers per tower. If you don't have a workshop
you may have to cleanup after a days work whereas if you had
a 'Yankee Workshop' you can leave the mess there. Cleanup,
setup, repeat daily = more labor, more hours, more tired.
I've been working part time on my array, 7 weeks now.
There is alot of hours depending on how picky you are crafting the
loudspeaker. I estimated 8 weeks, now it looks like 12 weeks.
Cost is rising to almost $1500 for the pair of towers. It's all the misc
things you buy that add up alot. If someone asked me to build
another, I would refuse unless they gave me $2k labor plus
parts. If I had a dedicated woodshop where I don't have to cleanup
daily then I would lower the labor cost.
Today I did some listening to an NSB test box {mini-array}
and comparing the sound to the PR170M0 which is highly regarded
for having a clean midrange sound. The five NSB test box has a
rated 100dB sensitivity and so does the PR17.
PR17 = .23 cu. ft. box
Five NSB = 2.3 cu. ft box
The NSB's can play as loud as the PR17 but offer more bass output,
alot more. I suspect if the PR17 was in a bigger box I can get
better bass too. The point is, the sound quality is good when you
array the NSB. After doing my listening test, I think 1 Pr17 is about
equal to five NSB's in overall performance. This is what my ear
tells me. I imagine an array of 10 PR17's to equal about 50 NSB's
in array form. /hehehehe
Most likely these loudspeakers will be sold locally where people
can hear it in action. Who buys speakers without auditioning?
I wouldn't buy any speaker without hearing it, but you never know
how people behave. You might as well place the worm on the fishing
pole {Ebay} and see if you catch a fish.
Labor? Imagine how easy it is to build a 2 way or 3 way loudspeaker
with 2 or 3 drivers in a small box. Then tackle a project where
you have 26 drivers per tower. If you don't have a workshop
you may have to cleanup after a days work whereas if you had
a 'Yankee Workshop' you can leave the mess there. Cleanup,
setup, repeat daily = more labor, more hours, more tired.
I've been working part time on my array, 7 weeks now.
There is alot of hours depending on how picky you are crafting the
loudspeaker. I estimated 8 weeks, now it looks like 12 weeks.
Cost is rising to almost $1500 for the pair of towers. It's all the misc
things you buy that add up alot. If someone asked me to build
another, I would refuse unless they gave me $2k labor plus
parts. If I had a dedicated woodshop where I don't have to cleanup
daily then I would lower the labor cost.
Today I did some listening to an NSB test box {mini-array}
and comparing the sound to the PR170M0 which is highly regarded
for having a clean midrange sound. The five NSB test box has a
rated 100dB sensitivity and so does the PR17.
PR17 = .23 cu. ft. box
Five NSB = 2.3 cu. ft box
The NSB's can play as loud as the PR17 but offer more bass output,
alot more. I suspect if the PR17 was in a bigger box I can get
better bass too. The point is, the sound quality is good when you
array the NSB. After doing my listening test, I think 1 Pr17 is about
equal to five NSB's in overall performance. This is what my ear
tells me. I imagine an array of 10 PR17's to equal about 50 NSB's
in array form. /hehehehe
Hi thylantyr
It certainly is fair enough to charge for your labour as long as that is the result is good enough. Remember that Hand Made does not mean poor quality is acceptable. It is usally in fact the complete opposite.
I haven't seen any pics of yours yet and will not prejudge them - but the quality of those offered on eBay is not very good at all. It looks like that main baffles have been painted with gloss paint and a paintbrush. That to me would be unacceptable for the price being asked. It also amazes me that somebody would go to the all the trouble of building an array and then finish them poorly
As an example of DIY projects that have a quality build take a look at some of the projects on Brian GT's site. I would certainly say many of these deserved craftsmen labour costs if they were sold. His Thor Project for example.
It certainly is fair enough to charge for your labour as long as that is the result is good enough. Remember that Hand Made does not mean poor quality is acceptable. It is usally in fact the complete opposite.
I haven't seen any pics of yours yet and will not prejudge them - but the quality of those offered on eBay is not very good at all. It looks like that main baffles have been painted with gloss paint and a paintbrush. That to me would be unacceptable for the price being asked. It also amazes me that somebody would go to the all the trouble of building an array and then finish them poorly
As an example of DIY projects that have a quality build take a look at some of the projects on Brian GT's site. I would certainly say many of these deserved craftsmen labour costs if they were sold. His Thor Project for example.
I haven't seen any pics of yours yet and will not prejudge them - but the quality of those offered on eBay is not very good at all. It looks like that main baffles have been painted with gloss paint and a paintbrush. That to me would be unacceptable for the price being asked. It also amazes me that somebody would go to the all the trouble of building an array and then finish them poorly
The problem with not being a professional photographer
is that sometimes the pictures don't represent the actual.
For example, I took these pictures with a Canon {$1000} 35mm film camera, but because I'm not a good photographer and
the conditions were not ideal, the picture quality is aweful.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/SA8535_blk1.jpg
The midrange and tweeter look much better that the picture shows. When using a flash you get bizzare effects.
Here is another;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/SA8535_blk2.jpg
another;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/SA8535_blk8.jpg
Feandil claims that the quality is much better than the photograph
shows. I don't know, I haven't seen his speakers.
The problem with not being a professional photographer
is that sometimes the pictures don't represent the actual.
For example, I took these pictures with a Canon {$1000} 35mm film camera, but because I'm not a good photographer and
the conditions were not ideal, the picture quality is aweful.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/SA8535_blk1.jpg
The midrange and tweeter look much better that the picture shows. When using a flash you get bizzare effects.
Here is another;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/SA8535_blk2.jpg
another;
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/SA8535_blk8.jpg
Feandil claims that the quality is much better than the photograph
shows. I don't know, I haven't seen his speakers.
Certainly a picture doesn't always look the same as the item itself.
But I would say that your pics look fine. What tweeters are those BTW?
What I am talking about ITO Feandil's pics is the construction of his cabinet looks poor - and I am sure this is not due to the quality of the photograph. The front grill for example looks good - but it looks as though he is mounting the grill with Velcro - not good enough I'm afraid. There is nothing wrong with painting a speaker cabinet - as long as the finish is durable and even. You will usually require a spray gun and compressor for this and it is not as easy as it may seem. Feandil's finish is definatly not even - you can see the paintbrush marks.
Take a look at the pics of the small bookshelves I constructed some time ago (I am not saying these are perfect - and would never attempt to sell them for any amount other than the recovery of cost of materials) - http://byrd.fotopic.net. Considering the scale of the line array project - surely he could have put in at least this much effort.
Just 4 points without even seeing the speakers (I am sure I might pick up more)
- White PVC Ports could be painted black
- He could have sprayed the cabinet instead of handpainting
- He could have made sure the staples used to secure the fabric were inserted fully, or even better, use proper fabric adhesive. Staples cause the fabric to stretch unevenly!
- He could have used proper grill mountings instead of velcro.
The pic I have included clearly demonstrates the first 2 points.
But I would say that your pics look fine. What tweeters are those BTW?
What I am talking about ITO Feandil's pics is the construction of his cabinet looks poor - and I am sure this is not due to the quality of the photograph. The front grill for example looks good - but it looks as though he is mounting the grill with Velcro - not good enough I'm afraid. There is nothing wrong with painting a speaker cabinet - as long as the finish is durable and even. You will usually require a spray gun and compressor for this and it is not as easy as it may seem. Feandil's finish is definatly not even - you can see the paintbrush marks.
Take a look at the pics of the small bookshelves I constructed some time ago (I am not saying these are perfect - and would never attempt to sell them for any amount other than the recovery of cost of materials) - http://byrd.fotopic.net. Considering the scale of the line array project - surely he could have put in at least this much effort.
Just 4 points without even seeing the speakers (I am sure I might pick up more)
- White PVC Ports could be painted black
- He could have sprayed the cabinet instead of handpainting
- He could have made sure the staples used to secure the fabric were inserted fully, or even better, use proper fabric adhesive. Staples cause the fabric to stretch unevenly!
- He could have used proper grill mountings instead of velcro.
The pic I have included clearly demonstrates the first 2 points.
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Well, the finish quality is definitely not there... if he skimped on the finish I wonder how much effort went into the cabinetry.
The hours involved may have been many but $/hr depends on the quality of work performed. Also he claims 'they' are a skilled team of designers and craftsmen...hmpff.
After building many DIY projects of many types, I know how much effort and money can and does go into a project, and therefore, I understand why good 'things' cost as much as they do, especially one-off designs. If I didn't have the skills and/or resources to build 'it' myself I'd gladly pay big $ for 'it' ,whatever 'it' may be, as long as the price was justified.
Dishonest, and senselessly over-greedy marketing just plain sucks. Find a little integrity, it's somewhere between pride and humility.
The hours involved may have been many but $/hr depends on the quality of work performed. Also he claims 'they' are a skilled team of designers and craftsmen...hmpff.
After building many DIY projects of many types, I know how much effort and money can and does go into a project, and therefore, I understand why good 'things' cost as much as they do, especially one-off designs. If I didn't have the skills and/or resources to build 'it' myself I'd gladly pay big $ for 'it' ,whatever 'it' may be, as long as the price was justified.
Dishonest, and senselessly over-greedy marketing just plain sucks. Find a little integrity, it's somewhere between pride and humility.
But I would say that your pics look fine. What tweeters are those BTW?
http://www.stageaccompany.com
What I am talking about ITO Feandil's pics is the construction of his cabinet looks poor
Feandil told me that pic he used was in the middle of contruction... there was only one coat on everything...
http://www.stageaccompany.com
What I am talking about ITO Feandil's pics is the construction of his cabinet looks poor
Feandil told me that pic he used was in the middle of contruction... there was only one coat on everything...
thylantyr said:
Its hand painted, another coat won't save that. I know just how much effort goes into a decent spray finish let alone the extra work required to get brush looking good.
The speakers in the picture below took nearly as long to finish as to construct. I still wasn't happy in the end because you could see the filler on the countersunk screws. So I re-did the entire cabinet again because I wanted a professional look.
Feandil's finishing looks terrible, staples on the grill! Brush marks everywhere, I've seen some gaps around the driver cutouts for the NSB's too. Could have been good if done correctly but its just a rush job or lack of skills IMO. Non of this would matter of course if he wasn't trying to flog them for the price of Sonus Fabers, which look incredible in the flesh.
Attachments
Banned
Joined 2002
Here's the above speakers after a complete rebuilt and remodel using sprayed matt black finish.
That's how picky I am and it would be double so if I was looking to buy $3000 speakers, no matter how many man hours had gone into them. For me looks and finish should co-exist with the great sound. What's the point in doing something if its not done correctly?
That's how picky I am and it would be double so if I was looking to buy $3000 speakers, no matter how many man hours had gone into them. For me looks and finish should co-exist with the great sound. What's the point in doing something if its not done correctly?
Attachments
i agree completely with looks being important. can i stand the old scratched finish on my advents? yes, but they were 5$. if i were to spend anything over 200$ i'd expect a professional level of finish, even if it were just veneer or something. having good sounding but ugly speakers is so bourgeois and it makes me sick after a while. have some class people!
Why are you all so nitpicky
what truely matters is the sonic build quiality. I dont care how my enclosure looks, if it sounds good! Sometimes people dont feel like spending hours and hours and hours making the gloss coat finish shine perfect when they could spend hours and hours tweaking the crossover or baffle step compensation to get the best sound possible out of the speakers.
Some of us may not have the time or skill, dont hate!
Nice work on the arrays Feandil, dont listen to these guys
what truely matters is the sonic build quiality. I dont care how my enclosure looks, if it sounds good! Sometimes people dont feel like spending hours and hours and hours making the gloss coat finish shine perfect when they could spend hours and hours tweaking the crossover or baffle step compensation to get the best sound possible out of the speakers.
Some of us may not have the time or skill, dont hate!
Nice work on the arrays Feandil, dont listen to these guys
BassAwdyO
"Nitpicky"? - I am sure that none of us have a problem with others building their projects in whatever way satisfies them, and would in fact generally be supportive of any project - no matter how poor it may seem - as long as the builder has tried his / her best within the means available to them.
HOWEVER when somebody comes on here posting how they are going to get $7000 for speakers that look like that - with the reason being that he can do this simply because there are a bunch of twits out there with lots of money that he can rip off - I find that unacceptable.
What are your thoughts on this sort of behaviour?
"Nitpicky"? - I am sure that none of us have a problem with others building their projects in whatever way satisfies them, and would in fact generally be supportive of any project - no matter how poor it may seem - as long as the builder has tried his / her best within the means available to them.
HOWEVER when somebody comes on here posting how they are going to get $7000 for speakers that look like that - with the reason being that he can do this simply because there are a bunch of twits out there with lots of money that he can rip off - I find that unacceptable.
What are your thoughts on this sort of behaviour?
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