odd design, aye
Yes, I have a booket with the 2200 that shows SAE's other products. The preamps have maximum output of 9 volts, so I guess these amps are designed for high gain pre-amps. So the odd choice of desgn is not benefical for sound?... bummer
I druled over the Kenwood M2 in High School! Had to settle for a Kenwood Stereo Receiver due to budget restrains
So if I was to put the parts, time and effort into restoring an old amp like this, the SAE 2200 is not the one to invest in...
You guys have saved me a lot of time and money, thanks
This was a good distraction, becuase I finally got to hear Avebury pumping more power. I liked it! Oddly enough, according to the SAE LED meter on the front, I did not go much over 40 watts (due to a lack of sufficant gain on my sources), yet I found it plenty loud. This amp does have more powerful bass then my chip amps, yet the chip amps have better transients. The mid-bass is more bassy on the SAE 2200 and more mid-range (defined) on the chip amps. The highs are about the same, so is the soundstage, but the highs and soundstage stand out more on the chip amps, due to the bass of the SAE. So maybe the "body" I like in the SAE is color!?! I found it relaxing to listen to, and no real nasties, yet it seems like it could be a little more resolved and "faster" on transients on the powerful bass. At least I have a better idea of what I need. I will play with this a couple more days before giving this back to my friend to sell
Thanks for all of your input...
Allen
Yes, I have a booket with the 2200 that shows SAE's other products. The preamps have maximum output of 9 volts, so I guess these amps are designed for high gain pre-amps. So the odd choice of desgn is not benefical for sound?... bummer
I druled over the Kenwood M2 in High School! Had to settle for a Kenwood Stereo Receiver due to budget restrains
So if I was to put the parts, time and effort into restoring an old amp like this, the SAE 2200 is not the one to invest in...
You guys have saved me a lot of time and money, thanks
This was a good distraction, becuase I finally got to hear Avebury pumping more power. I liked it! Oddly enough, according to the SAE LED meter on the front, I did not go much over 40 watts (due to a lack of sufficant gain on my sources), yet I found it plenty loud. This amp does have more powerful bass then my chip amps, yet the chip amps have better transients. The mid-bass is more bassy on the SAE 2200 and more mid-range (defined) on the chip amps. The highs are about the same, so is the soundstage, but the highs and soundstage stand out more on the chip amps, due to the bass of the SAE. So maybe the "body" I like in the SAE is color!?! I found it relaxing to listen to, and no real nasties, yet it seems like it could be a little more resolved and "faster" on transients on the powerful bass. At least I have a better idea of what I need. I will play with this a couple more days before giving this back to my friend to sell
Thanks for all of your input...
Allen
The chip amps really do work wonderfully well. There is, however, a certain je nais se quoi with a big amp. Something with the headroom.
The Kenwood M1/M1A/M1D ranged from 100w/ch to 150 w/chan and are much more available than the M2. Can also be found for ~$100 - $150 ready to play.
Not quite the magic of the M2 but still tasty.
The Kenwood M1/M1A/M1D ranged from 100w/ch to 150 w/chan and are much more available than the M2. Can also be found for ~$100 - $150 ready to play.
Not quite the magic of the M2 but still tasty.
I have wondered that myself. That may give me the tone and body I want, but I have a feeling that I still need more headroom then my current chip amps provide. However, there is a brigded chip amp kit that provides 100 watts/RMS/peak per channel as an option, and of course the Hypex that are still on my short list.
I am looking into the Kenwoods and Yamahas also, as I may find something at the right price.
More distractions to post yet...
Allen
Interesting, except for sheer peak power, my Mk XXIV is audibly indistinguishable from my Altec 9444A/SA studio reference and these two sounded slightly better overall than the MC2500 they replaced. Back then, my biggest problem was keeping system noise low due to having ~112 dB efficient speaker systems.
Regardless, in my limited experience, it would be the chip amps that are 'colored' due to having wimpy power sections, i.e. weak bottom end makes for harmonic distortion same as a 'hot' speaker sounds more detailed, spacious, etc. since the harmonics are higher than natural referenced to the fundamental.
GM
There is this or that and I want this and that:
I have not ruled that out as a possibility. I ran an output voltage test on both amps with a dummy load at different volume levels and frequencies. The chip amps measured even thru out... a .1 off once and a while in the 10,000Hz region. The SAE was generally even, being off 1 volt at .37 watts in the 10,000 Hz region, and not able to hold its voltage at full power at 100 watts (the voltage slowly drained down at all frequencies). Due to this test, I set both amps at around 7 volts, (6 watts RMS) where they both measured stable and even. It is amazing how different they sound. No clear winner, as they both are missing what the other has, and have what the other needs! Chips amps are colored not having the meaty bass and the SAE is colored not having the resolution (possibly due to age and the "drainage" problem above).
Was that per chance a McIntosh MC2500
Allen
I have not ruled that out as a possibility. I ran an output voltage test on both amps with a dummy load at different volume levels and frequencies. The chip amps measured even thru out... a .1 off once and a while in the 10,000Hz region. The SAE was generally even, being off 1 volt at .37 watts in the 10,000 Hz region, and not able to hold its voltage at full power at 100 watts (the voltage slowly drained down at all frequencies). Due to this test, I set both amps at around 7 volts, (6 watts RMS) where they both measured stable and even. It is amazing how different they sound. No clear winner, as they both are missing what the other has, and have what the other needs! Chips amps are colored not having the meaty bass and the SAE is colored not having the resolution (possibly due to age and the "drainage" problem above).
Was that per chance a McIntosh MC2500
Allen
The SAE was generally even, being off 1 volt at .37 watts in the 10,000 Hz region, and not able to hold its voltage at full power at 100 watts (the voltage slowly drained down at all frequencies).
Due to this test, I set both amps at around 7 volts, (6 watts RMS) where they both measured stable and even. It is amazing how different they sound.
Was that per chance a McIntosh MC2500
Allen
Hmm, that sounds potentially dangerous, so rummaged around and found a 100 W/8 ohm power resistor to check mine, which thankfully showed no bleed down at least to 100 W of a 250 W rating.
The only other thing I can think of is differing DF. Mine has a DF = 80 whereas I gather that many chip amps have very little to none.
Correct, traded an MC275 for it as I'd had my 'fill' of tube based systems for driving bass bins.
GM
Four amps battle it out:
I have been making hay while the sun is shining in reguards to work. The weeds are growing and my yard care business is in full swing...
Finally got a chance to set up all these amps (distractions) that have come into my listening room in the last six weeks... Of which the Chip Amps and SAE 2200 you know about. I also reaquired my old open baffle active system as my freind is like many of us is confronting tough economic times, a heart braking story. So I am now once again the proud owner of a couple Sure TK2050 class-D amp boards. Also, my other freind (owner of the SAE 2200) has a Kenwood Model Eleven III Reciever - another vintage gem. Quite honestly, I really did not think I had much of anything there to really listen to, but it all needed a looking over, so here goes...
The Sure TK2050 has the same tonal balance of the Chip Amps. The Chip Amps are more airy and open, and articulate the low bass better then the Sure. However, I did not modify the Sure boards, so maybe they can be brought to the chip amps level. I ran the Sure board with the 27 volt Meanwell SMPS. Under these conditions, the Chip Amps are a clear winner.
Next up is the Kenwood -vs- the SAE 2200. It so happens that this Kenwood Reciever has a power in/pre out option, in other words, I can hook my light speed straight into the power amp and bypass all the knobs and switches which are in dyre need of cleaning. On testing, I found the Kenwood to have the same drainage problem as the SAE, but it could output its full power, at least before it gets too hot - when it will shut down. It seems all these amps I have here can only do 40 watts Rms safely! But I was able to run the Kenwood to 100 watts peaks for about 10 minutes before it shut down. In that time, to my surprise, it out did the SAE! In fact, I would go as far to say, I really liked the sound of the Kenwood. It had the solid bass of the SAE, with a more present midrange. The SAE sounded "rolled off" in the highs, lacking Downward Dynamic range, where as the Kenwood held that all in place even with big bass impacts. Of course both of these amps are by no means operating at their full potential, so... ...at least today, the Kenwood defeated the SAE
Finally, for the semi final, we have the Kenwood -vs- the Chip Amps. The Chip Amps are more detailed, infact, when comparing to the Kenwood, I find them too detailed, I think the audiophile term is "bright" I would have thought the newer, brighter amp would have had the better sound stage, no, to at all, it almost seems the soundstage gets lost in the detail with the chip amps. That does not make sense, so if anyone has some input on this, let us all know! In the end, I prefered the deeper, fuller, yet detailed enough sound of the Kenwood. The bummer of it all, is that the Kenwood keeps shutting down, and makes a loud crackleing sound when it comes back on, I am guessing the relay has a bad contact...
So with all that said, I am getting a better picture of the kind of amp I want for Avebury. I am thinking 100 to 150 watts (peak) is about right. During some of these listening tests I did hear for the first time how Alpair 12 handles reaching its limits, and I have to say, very well. It comes across more as static, and can almost be overlooked. I was pushing 100 watt bass peaks for this to occur. I got some loss of midrange detail during these moments, but again, we are looking at some pretty loud levels here, with > 50Hz bass peaks. I mean, afler all, it is amazing a six inch speaker can play all of this! For normal day to day life and listening, this system is plenty loud, and I am finding with the right amp, I will not need a subwoofer!
So.. given what I have learned from these trails and tribulations with all these diferent amps. What do you recommend? I may restore one of these vintage amps, but I am kind of wondering if there is something "new" that I can build that has readily available parts. Does a class-A amp have more of what I like? Say if I was to lay out a $500 budget.
I welcome your thoughts
Allen
I have been making hay while the sun is shining in reguards to work. The weeds are growing and my yard care business is in full swing...
Finally got a chance to set up all these amps (distractions) that have come into my listening room in the last six weeks... Of which the Chip Amps and SAE 2200 you know about. I also reaquired my old open baffle active system as my freind is like many of us is confronting tough economic times, a heart braking story. So I am now once again the proud owner of a couple Sure TK2050 class-D amp boards. Also, my other freind (owner of the SAE 2200) has a Kenwood Model Eleven III Reciever - another vintage gem. Quite honestly, I really did not think I had much of anything there to really listen to, but it all needed a looking over, so here goes...
The Sure TK2050 has the same tonal balance of the Chip Amps. The Chip Amps are more airy and open, and articulate the low bass better then the Sure. However, I did not modify the Sure boards, so maybe they can be brought to the chip amps level. I ran the Sure board with the 27 volt Meanwell SMPS. Under these conditions, the Chip Amps are a clear winner.
Next up is the Kenwood -vs- the SAE 2200. It so happens that this Kenwood Reciever has a power in/pre out option, in other words, I can hook my light speed straight into the power amp and bypass all the knobs and switches which are in dyre need of cleaning. On testing, I found the Kenwood to have the same drainage problem as the SAE, but it could output its full power, at least before it gets too hot - when it will shut down. It seems all these amps I have here can only do 40 watts Rms safely! But I was able to run the Kenwood to 100 watts peaks for about 10 minutes before it shut down. In that time, to my surprise, it out did the SAE! In fact, I would go as far to say, I really liked the sound of the Kenwood. It had the solid bass of the SAE, with a more present midrange. The SAE sounded "rolled off" in the highs, lacking Downward Dynamic range, where as the Kenwood held that all in place even with big bass impacts. Of course both of these amps are by no means operating at their full potential, so... ...at least today, the Kenwood defeated the SAE
Finally, for the semi final, we have the Kenwood -vs- the Chip Amps. The Chip Amps are more detailed, infact, when comparing to the Kenwood, I find them too detailed, I think the audiophile term is "bright" I would have thought the newer, brighter amp would have had the better sound stage, no, to at all, it almost seems the soundstage gets lost in the detail with the chip amps. That does not make sense, so if anyone has some input on this, let us all know! In the end, I prefered the deeper, fuller, yet detailed enough sound of the Kenwood. The bummer of it all, is that the Kenwood keeps shutting down, and makes a loud crackleing sound when it comes back on, I am guessing the relay has a bad contact...
So with all that said, I am getting a better picture of the kind of amp I want for Avebury. I am thinking 100 to 150 watts (peak) is about right. During some of these listening tests I did hear for the first time how Alpair 12 handles reaching its limits, and I have to say, very well. It comes across more as static, and can almost be overlooked. I was pushing 100 watt bass peaks for this to occur. I got some loss of midrange detail during these moments, but again, we are looking at some pretty loud levels here, with > 50Hz bass peaks. I mean, afler all, it is amazing a six inch speaker can play all of this! For normal day to day life and listening, this system is plenty loud, and I am finding with the right amp, I will not need a subwoofer!
So.. given what I have learned from these trails and tribulations with all these diferent amps. What do you recommend? I may restore one of these vintage amps, but I am kind of wondering if there is something "new" that I can build that has readily available parts. Does a class-A amp have more of what I like? Say if I was to lay out a $500 budget.
I welcome your thoughts
Allen
Attachments
Just for fun, my old system
I present to you, model 777:
The subwoofers are not shown, as my freind did keep them, which is surprising to me, becuase it was the weakest part of this system. He is building them into his RV! I did get to hear these with the subwoofers against Avebury. Quite honestly, there was no clear winner, what one was weak in the other was strong in. For instance, Avebury, has a flatter power response, a more 3D soundstage and surprisingly, lower bass. (I am really glad he wanted the subwoofers!) The 777 sounded more like a live show, had a wider soundstage, and flat out just filled the room with a wall of sound. I like the low end, detail texture and the sound stage depth of the Avebury, yet the room just disappears with the 777. Now knowing that the chip amps do the detail bit better then the Sures, I would like to hear the 777's again. I think the chip amp will be better suited for the highs on this system. Also, it is appearent that the 777 need some EQ help on the low end, and most certainly a better subwoofer. So when I am ready, I can start a new thread on that.
I did hook both systems together, and it did sound really good if you where in the "right" spot. There where definately some interference problems due to not being able to array these correctly. I may use the 777's for a 4.0 surround system down the road. I need a bigger room!
Here again though, if I could build a system that has the best of both worlds, we will really have something!
God Bless
Allen
I present to you, model 777:
The subwoofers are not shown, as my freind did keep them, which is surprising to me, becuase it was the weakest part of this system. He is building them into his RV! I did get to hear these with the subwoofers against Avebury. Quite honestly, there was no clear winner, what one was weak in the other was strong in. For instance, Avebury, has a flatter power response, a more 3D soundstage and surprisingly, lower bass. (I am really glad he wanted the subwoofers!) The 777 sounded more like a live show, had a wider soundstage, and flat out just filled the room with a wall of sound. I like the low end, detail texture and the sound stage depth of the Avebury, yet the room just disappears with the 777. Now knowing that the chip amps do the detail bit better then the Sures, I would like to hear the 777's again. I think the chip amp will be better suited for the highs on this system. Also, it is appearent that the 777 need some EQ help on the low end, and most certainly a better subwoofer. So when I am ready, I can start a new thread on that.
I did hook both systems together, and it did sound really good if you where in the "right" spot. There where definately some interference problems due to not being able to array these correctly. I may use the 777's for a 4.0 surround system down the road. I need a bigger room!
Here again though, if I could build a system that has the best of both worlds, we will really have something!
God Bless
Allen
Attachments
Thanks Zia
Actually, I would like to try tube gear. There are no "bottle heads" in my area, so living room trails are hard to come by. It will be a leap of faith, as in buying something and hoping for the best. This is why I am sharing my listening impressions with everyone, so you all can get a better feel for what I like and can help lead me to what I am seeking. There is a big world of amps out there, so any suggestions you have would help. I know you have some tube gear yourself, but as I recall (I could be wrong) you like your Hypex 180HG the best, so...
Allen
Actually, I would like to try tube gear. There are no "bottle heads" in my area, so living room trails are hard to come by. It will be a leap of faith, as in buying something and hoping for the best. This is why I am sharing my listening impressions with everyone, so you all can get a better feel for what I like and can help lead me to what I am seeking. There is a big world of amps out there, so any suggestions you have would help. I know you have some tube gear yourself, but as I recall (I could be wrong) you like your Hypex 180HG the best, so...
Allen
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This is silly, but important, otherwise I would not post:
In reference to the Avebury and 777 comparison above, I forgot to mention 777's other incrediblily strong trait, and that is its dispersion. No matter where in the room I listen, it sounds the same, so even though the 777's power response lacks in bass, it has the same tonal balance through out the room. Big plus for the 777. Like I say, I am looking for both systems in one system!
Allen
In reference to the Avebury and 777 comparison above, I forgot to mention 777's other incrediblily strong trait, and that is its dispersion. No matter where in the room I listen, it sounds the same, so even though the 777's power response lacks in bass, it has the same tonal balance through out the room. Big plus for the 777. Like I say, I am looking for both systems in one system!
Allen
Allen,
My current tube amp is probably a bit underpowered, topping out at 5 watts/channel. I understand that all watts are not equal (though will not be able to explain why). Recently I put in some Raytheon 5670 tubes in place of the stock Chinese 6n3, and the "bloom" is much reduced and sound has more detail/clarity. I am waiting for a pair of Sovtek EL84s to replace the Shuguang EL84s - in my experience the Sovteks have more bass weight.
I am eagerly awaiting the completion of a Tubelab PP build - my soldering skills are non-existent and a friend is working on the board and kit I got from George (Tubelab). I am one tube short though (one of the JJ EL84s I had for this project turned out to be a dud). Will have to wait till mid or late June for a new tube!
The UcD180HG works fine, and the Tripath TK2050 is playing with most detail...but somehow again swinging back to tubes - something in upper mid bass warmth likely...
along with reduction of brightness, or basically just getting more 
!
My current tube amp is probably a bit underpowered, topping out at 5 watts/channel. I understand that all watts are not equal (though will not be able to explain why
). Recently I put in some Raytheon 5670 tubes in place of the stock Chinese 6n3, and the "bloom" is much reduced and sound has more detail/clarity. I am waiting for a pair of Sovtek EL84s to replace the Shuguang EL84s - in my experience the Sovteks have more bass weight.I am eagerly awaiting the completion of a Tubelab PP build - my soldering skills are non-existent and a friend is working on the board and kit I got from George (Tubelab). I am one tube short though (one of the JJ EL84s I had for this project turned out to be a dud). Will have to wait till mid or late June for a new tube!
The UcD180HG works fine, and the Tripath TK2050 is playing with most detail...but somehow again swinging back to tubes - something in upper mid bass warmth likely...
along with reduction of brightness, or basically just getting more !
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but somehow again swinging back to tubes - something in upper mid bass warmth likely...
Thanks for sharing that, Zia.
Maybe GM is right, the chip amps and the TK2050 are colored not by what they add, but by what they are missing! The feeling I get when listening to the chip amps compared to these partually fuctioning vintage amps is with the chip amps, I am seeing an outdoor concert sitting in the back row and the band is using a boom box with subwoofers as a PA system. The sound is detailed, fast, direct and distant. The music sounds like it is being played thru a stereo. With the Kenwood, I am seeing a concert at the venue the recording engineer intented, and I am sitting closer to the front. The band sounds bigger and the venue (ambient sounds) has a more realistic scale. I think this is more then a mid bass issue. There is just "more" there across the whole hearing range. And it is not over done as in "bloom" or fat. The SAE was over done. It is nearly as if the chips amps are working so hard to do the details, that they are not reproducing the details between the details. They are hitting all the direct sounds and missing the ambient sounds that makes music real. But, the chip amps do reproduce the ambient sounds better then the Sure version of the TK2050. And maybe this is what we like. Tube gear seems to do this better, my concern is getting enough power, as I still like dynamics. Now I know that Alpair 12's max is about 100 watt peaks, I believe that a 60 watt tube amp will be about right, giving me good clip recovery and speaker protection. Looking at big $$$$ here, about the same as a Hypex Ncore. The other option is solid state class-A, maybe a little less $$$ and maintiance free. I have been curious to try both formats. I found a 30 watt class-A design that is capable of 58 watt peaks:
Jean Hiraga's Super Class-A Amplifier
And I looked into the Tubelab PP. All the links for the manuals for that amp are broken, eventhough George still sells the boards. I am guessing people prefer the Tubelab Simple SE which apears to have the same 15 watt output as the PP:
Amplifier Designs
I also found the 25 watt Oddwatt that uses the same tube as the Tubelab SSE. The kits are out of my budget, but maybe if I ordered the parts myself and built my own box I could work it out:
OddBlocks - Class-A Push-Pull KT88 Tube Amplifier (12SL7 Driver)
OddWatt Audio 5751 SRPP / KT88 Push-Pull Monoblock Tube Amplifier Kits
None of these "appear" to be ideal, as I really want to have enough power for Avebury. The other option is to go with a Hypex 180HG or a bridged chip amp and a Tube pre. My concern with this is does the 180HG and the chip amps have the "resolution" to reproduce the details between the details?
Around and around we go
Allen
Well said Douglas!
But you've built a couple of designs for the Alp 12 and others like me have benefited from your experience. And the Clairtone project - would you call that a non-experiment? I seriously need to finish the Tubelab PP and share my listening impressions with you guys.
Amen, Doug! That is the fastest path to success. Quite honestly, I think everyone is waiting for the results of that expensive experiment, that no one is doing the experiment...
And, yes, it is crazy, I do not think it can be done without a bit of crazyness, sleep deprevation, and financial risk - after life's priorities are covered
Allen
And, yes, it is crazy, I do not think it can be done without a bit of crazyness, sleep deprevation, and financial risk - after life's priorities are covered
Allen
Any thoughts on this amp?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/189599-my-little-cheap-circlophone.html
It appears that you can "dial in" your power output by selecting the appropreate output devices. This is a class AB amp that runs warm so it is said to run more class-A-ish. People building them, seem to like them, I have a lot more reading to do yet...
Allen
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/189599-my-little-cheap-circlophone.html
It appears that you can "dial in" your power output by selecting the appropreate output devices. This is a class AB amp that runs warm so it is said to run more class-A-ish. People building them, seem to like them, I have a lot more reading to do yet...
Allen
How about these?
Allen,
Have you thought about these? Updated designs, 35w/ch or 60w/ch. These particular kits get great reviews and are the most cost effective tube amps ($/w) I've seen.
tubes4hifi amplifier KITs page
Allen,
Have you thought about these? Updated designs, 35w/ch or 60w/ch. These particular kits get great reviews and are the most cost effective tube amps ($/w) I've seen.
tubes4hifi amplifier KITs page
Well said Douglas!
I seriously need to finish the Tubelab PP and share my listening impressions with you guys.
I try and do my bit, contribute where I can. Thanks!
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