That sounds Fast!
What is FAST? Fun, Awesome, Sound Thread? I would be very interested in your impressions of that system. I am assumming you are using an active crossover. Are you using both the A12 and A7.3 as mid-tweet at the same time? (Or comparing the two). It sounds like you are having a lot of fun!
I am torn between the AMB Gamma y2 Dac and the Twisted Pear Opus Dac. Both use the same main chip. AMB will come fully assembled with oversampling, USB, Toslink, output buffers, and finished cases. Opus has moduler boards that I can put together inside a "nice" lightspeed case. Opus is more of a DIY project, it has switches to customize the boards for different apps and the such. It the end, the cost will end up being the same. The AMB has all the bells and whisles, like USB, that I do not need, as I have S/PDIF on my computer. The Opus has a beefier PSU. The only listening impressions I have found so far between the two is the AMB has a more "forward mid-range" (which I like) and the Opus has a "silky treble" (which I also like). Can I have both? This is going to take some thought...
Allen
What is FAST? Fun, Awesome, Sound Thread? I would be very interested in your impressions of that system. I am assumming you are using an active crossover. Are you using both the A12 and A7.3 as mid-tweet at the same time? (Or comparing the two). It sounds like you are having a lot of fun!
I am torn between the AMB Gamma y2 Dac and the Twisted Pear Opus Dac. Both use the same main chip. AMB will come fully assembled with oversampling, USB, Toslink, output buffers, and finished cases. Opus has moduler boards that I can put together inside a "nice" lightspeed case. Opus is more of a DIY project, it has switches to customize the boards for different apps and the such. It the end, the cost will end up being the same. The AMB has all the bells and whisles, like USB, that I do not need, as I have S/PDIF on my computer. The Opus has a beefier PSU. The only listening impressions I have found so far between the two is the AMB has a more "forward mid-range" (which I like) and the Opus has a "silky treble" (which I also like). Can I have both? This is going to take some thought...
Allen
Allen,
I like really your version of FAST too! P10 Dave sounds like a broken record on his advice to go FAST (Fullrange AssiSTed) to guys who need extra bass with full-range - it is pretty awesome and a lot of fun - basically having helper woofers do the bass duty and let the FR unit focus on midrange and highs.
There's a wealth of discussion on FAST in a few threads in the forum like the following:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/144099-thread-tysen-variations-fast.html?highlight=Tysen
Buzzforb, SilverhairBP, and a few others are working on FAST variations too:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/196406-7-3-variations.html?highlight=Tysen
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/200504-fast-subs-under-ma-drivers.html
I did some experimentation with my old 12" woofers and Mar-Ken7.3 - it was pretty impressive. The woofers though are a bit PA style and have a hard, deep bass - a bit clubby or outdoorsy at times. Well I got hold of a pair of Tangband W6-1139 subwoofers and decided to try again.
For mid-tweet we had Alp 7.3 in Mar-Ken7.3 ad Alp 12 in A12 DBR boxes. These are being driven by the Hypex and the subs are with the Hifimediy T4. We were using these alternately (not together) to pair up with the subs. The XO was fixed at 110 Hz. Not surprised that the Alp 7.3 integrates better with the sub... and it has more extended highs - a sweet combination. Despite losing out in some other areas the Alp 12 and sub FAST combo has a more vertically extended sound stage - a big sound feeling which I am not getting to that extent with the Alp 7.3 and sub. I have found this "big sound" impression of the A12 as one of it's characteristics. I kind of like it.
BTW, this is a bi-amped system. Through the Foobar plug-in it possible to adjust gain of mid-tweet and sub independently. Listened to a lot of stuff - close to a 100% of it sounds better. Some of the weak/thin recordings don't sound as bad. Stuff with bass sounds more full, and stuff with sub-bass - you start getting it. Tracks like Daraijin from Kodo's Mondo head now play well with Alp 7.3 in FAST - going solo previously, excursion might have been a concern; when solo, the A12 can handle bigger/heavier music much better that the A7.3, the sub adds some fatness to the music effortlessly. I like electronic dance music and FAST really works well with that. Need to try out some heavy/thrash metal today! Fans of feeling the bass will be truly satisfied with a combo like this.
Thanks to forum member Banglacx for being a partner in this experimentation.
- Zia
I like really your version of FAST too! P10 Dave sounds like a broken record on his advice to go FAST (Fullrange AssiSTed) to guys who need extra bass with full-range - it is pretty awesome and a lot of fun - basically having helper woofers do the bass duty and let the FR unit focus on midrange and highs.
There's a wealth of discussion on FAST in a few threads in the forum like the following:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/144099-thread-tysen-variations-fast.html?highlight=Tysen
Buzzforb, SilverhairBP, and a few others are working on FAST variations too:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/196406-7-3-variations.html?highlight=Tysen
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/200504-fast-subs-under-ma-drivers.html
I did some experimentation with my old 12" woofers and Mar-Ken7.3 - it was pretty impressive. The woofers though are a bit PA style and have a hard, deep bass - a bit clubby or outdoorsy at times. Well I got hold of a pair of Tangband W6-1139 subwoofers and decided to try again.
For mid-tweet we had Alp 7.3 in Mar-Ken7.3 ad Alp 12 in A12 DBR boxes. These are being driven by the Hypex and the subs are with the Hifimediy T4. We were using these alternately (not together) to pair up with the subs. The XO was fixed at 110 Hz. Not surprised that the Alp 7.3 integrates better with the sub... and it has more extended highs - a sweet combination. Despite losing out in some other areas the Alp 12 and sub FAST combo has a more vertically extended sound stage - a big sound feeling which I am not getting to that extent with the Alp 7.3 and sub. I have found this "big sound" impression of the A12 as one of it's characteristics. I kind of like it.
BTW, this is a bi-amped system. Through the Foobar plug-in it possible to adjust gain of mid-tweet and sub independently. Listened to a lot of stuff - close to a 100% of it sounds better. Some of the weak/thin recordings don't sound as bad. Stuff with bass sounds more full, and stuff with sub-bass - you start getting it. Tracks like Daraijin from Kodo's Mondo head now play well with Alp 7.3 in FAST - going solo previously, excursion might have been a concern; when solo, the A12 can handle bigger/heavier music much better that the A7.3, the sub adds some fatness to the music effortlessly. I like electronic dance music and FAST really works well with that. Need to try out some heavy/thrash metal today! Fans of feeling the bass will be truly satisfied with a combo like this.
Thanks to forum member Banglacx for being a partner in this experimentation.
- Zia
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Not surprised that the Alp 7.3 integrates better with the sub... and it has more extended highs - a sweet combination. Despite losing out in some other areas the Alp 12 and sub FAST combo has a more vertically extended sound stage - a big sound feeling which I am not getting to that extent with the Alp 7.3 and sub. I have found this "big sound" impression of the A12 as one of it's characteristics. I kind of like it.
It makes sense that the TB W6-1139 works better with the Alp 7.3. I am thinking a nice 10 or 12" for the Alp 12 - to really enhance that "big sound" feeling and deep sound stage! I look forward to reading the threads about FAST, thanks for the links, Zia. I am keeping this concept in mind. Avebury has plenty of bass, I am just not sure what the power handling or the Downward Dynamic Range of Alpair 12 in Avebury will be like with 200 watt peaks at my "desired" loudest level. (See post #358) Of course I may not desire that level as much once I have more Downward Dynamic Range with the new DAC. I will take the test again after I have the new DAC.
I just got done watching Star TRek VI - The undiscovered country, on Laser Disc in Analog. There is definately more DDR on these analog tracks. The Digital actually has a more "forward" mid-range, and less DDR and the analog has a "smoother" treble and more depth behind the speakers. Maybe I do not desire that forward sound like I thought I did. You all know how sound can play tricks on your mind like that! Maybe I want more midrange to cover up the harsh treble! I am hoping the new DAC will rival or better the characteristics of these analog sound tracks.
Keep treaking away everyone, and Happy Easter!
God Bless
Allen
I forget which pro designer said something like 'HIFI begins at -40 dB', but this refers to the lowest amplitude of the human voice's overtones out in the ~5-9 kHz BW, so the more dynamic range a driver can reproduce without masking these overtones, the more accurate the reproduction.
Little wonder then that 'shouty' drivers like Lowther, Audio Nirvana or similar can sound so life-like with voices since they amplify this BW to cut through the 'mud' that's inherent when forcing a driver to cover from ~ 60 Hz-up, i.e. > ~5 octaves.
GM
Little wonder then that 'shouty' drivers like Lowther, Audio Nirvana or similar can sound so life-like with voices since they amplify this BW to cut through the 'mud' that's inherent when forcing a driver to cover from ~ 60 Hz-up, i.e. > ~5 octaves.
GM
Amazon.com: Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (Remastered) [Blu-ray]: Movies & TV
Do you mean this one? It says remastered but it doesn't say exactly which Dolby technology etc. they chose.
Star trek VI
Right Movie, but they remastered it in AC-3 for this blu-ray. My version is the original Dolby Stereo Sound. The Laser disc version I have has two copies of this Dolby soundtrack on it, one in Digital Stereo (16/44kHz?) and the other in CX encoded Analog Stereo. The analog copy has more DDR then the digital thru my player's DAC. I would hope that the remastered Blu-ray version above would have more DDR then my older version, but I guess that mostly depends on the Blu-ray player's DAC!?!
Allen
Right Movie, but they remastered it in AC-3 for this blu-ray. My version is the original Dolby Stereo Sound. The Laser disc version I have has two copies of this Dolby soundtrack on it, one in Digital Stereo (16/44kHz?) and the other in CX encoded Analog Stereo. The analog copy has more DDR then the digital thru my player's DAC. I would hope that the remastered Blu-ray version above would have more DDR then my older version, but I guess that mostly depends on the Blu-ray player's DAC!?!
Allen
dynamic range 140 dB?
Is that -40 dB in addition to the 90 dB - 120 dB dynamic range expectation of our sound sytems?
Makes sense, GM, a good reason to go FAST as mentioned in the posts above. I need to play with an EQ with those analog tracks, to see if crossing out the bass on Alpair 12 brings out more DDR. Of course my underpowered amps make it impossible to get a truthful result from this test at louder levels. Will try anyway, as this shortcoming is looming in my mind...
Allen
Is that -40 dB in addition to the 90 dB - 120 dB dynamic range expectation of our sound sytems?
Makes sense, GM, a good reason to go FAST as mentioned in the posts above. I need to play with an EQ with those analog tracks, to see if crossing out the bass on Alpair 12 brings out more DDR. Of course my underpowered amps make it impossible to get a truthful result from this test at louder levels. Will try anyway, as this shortcoming is looming in my mind...
Allen
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Douglas, how's the Clairtone Project-G going? I have not seen any new activity on your thread.
Allen
Source matters!
Yoda had it right "Do or do not - there is no try!" The EQ takes away too much for me to get a definative answer if relieving the Alpair of bass would yeild better DDR. The only time I could percieve an improvement was when I relieved the amps of clipping! Quite honestly I think it is going to be very close once I have the bigger amps and the DAC for my given room situation. My gut is telling me to stick with Avebury
I have been enjoying music more thru the CLD-3070 and lightspeed. I dug out some Pink Floyd, Genisis, and Tchaikovski the other night. Quite enjoyable! I am starting to see the sound this system is capable of. I have found some of the cracks and pops I have heard on my CD's are both recording flaws and handling flaws (my CD collection got abused in a car stereo when I was a traveling vendor rep for Lowes stores in a four state area). The flaws are on my flac files also, just not as noticable. Can not stand listening to the Realtek audio in the computer at the moment. Think of the diference between using a glass cutting board verses a wood cutting board with a few glass chips on it. I say it that way, becuase the Realtek has a "crystalline" sound to it, where as the CLD-3070 only has a reminance of this sonic character (it is there none the less) I have a very strong feeling that the new DAC is going to be the keystone of success for this system...
I have decided to go with the Opus DAC (unless I can get a used gamma y2 in the swap meet!) More $$$, but I like the modular approach, the flexibility of customization, balanced outputs, and the ability to upgrade to the Buffalo if I choose to down the road.
Likewise, I have decided to go for the Hypex Ncore 400 amp (unless I can get a used UcD HG on swap meet!) Grantid, it will take awhile for me to save up my clams for this amp, but I think it will be a good match for the Avebury.
These units will not solve my acoustical issues, but I find it easier to overlook the detail loss on the couch when the details are handled better. I actually sit forward or move the couch up about 2 feet when I get into listening. I will experience this problem with any speaker system anyway, just to a greater or lesser degree.
The reason I share this information, is as you all well know, I have been struggling with this system. It seems to me that it should sound way better! Well it does, just not thru my source components. I want it clearly understood that my playback system is definately a weak link in the chain. A really weak link! Such a weak link, that I could have easily cobwebbed a really great speaker design. I figured this out listening to music I have not heard for awhile. While the music did indeed sound better then my former system, it still had some of the same "flaws" in it. New speakers, new amps, must be that 20 year old player! Flaws are not in my truck system! In fact I heard the same crystalline sound thru my past systems - JBL control 5's, Jensen 3-ways, and Meadowlark driven thru a Pioneer DS1 reciever then a McIntosh C-22 re-issue pre, and MC-150 amp. I sold that system to buy my house! I never heard that system thru a good source! (Is that why it sounded so good with my recordings in the store, and not at home!) I always thought that you could have great speakers and a crappy system and still get great sound. Opps! Yes, I can be a little thick sometimes (I was 25 back then)! That is okay, I like my house, and I have a feeling I will out due that system for way less money and a lot more fun
Bottom line, if you have been following this thread, deciding whether to build Avebury, and you want a system that will bring out the passion you have invested in your amps and source, go for it!
May the force be with you!
Allen
Yoda had it right "Do or do not - there is no try!" The EQ takes away too much for me to get a definative answer if relieving the Alpair of bass would yeild better DDR. The only time I could percieve an improvement was when I relieved the amps of clipping! Quite honestly I think it is going to be very close once I have the bigger amps and the DAC for my given room situation. My gut is telling me to stick with Avebury
I have been enjoying music more thru the CLD-3070 and lightspeed. I dug out some Pink Floyd, Genisis, and Tchaikovski the other night. Quite enjoyable! I am starting to see the sound this system is capable of. I have found some of the cracks and pops I have heard on my CD's are both recording flaws
and handling flaws (my CD collection got abused in a car stereo when I was a traveling vendor rep for Lowes stores in a four state area). The flaws are on my flac files also, just not as noticable. Can not stand listening to the Realtek audio in the computer at the moment. Think of the diference between using a glass cutting board verses a wood cutting board with a few glass chips on it. I say it that way, becuase the Realtek has a "crystalline" sound to it, where as the CLD-3070 only has a reminance of this sonic character (it is there none the less) I have a very strong feeling that the new DAC is going to be the keystone of success for this system...I have decided to go with the Opus DAC (unless I can get a used gamma y2 in the swap meet!) More $$$, but I like the modular approach, the flexibility of customization, balanced outputs, and the ability to upgrade to the Buffalo if I choose to down the road.
Likewise, I have decided to go for the Hypex Ncore 400 amp (unless I can get a used UcD HG on swap meet!) Grantid, it will take awhile for me to save up my clams for this amp, but I think it will be a good match for the Avebury.
These units will not solve my acoustical issues, but I find it easier to overlook the detail loss on the couch when the details are handled better. I actually sit forward or move the couch up about 2 feet when I get into listening. I will experience this problem with any speaker system anyway, just to a greater or lesser degree.
The reason I share this information, is as you all well know, I have been struggling with this system. It seems to me that it should sound way better! Well it does, just not thru my source components. I want it clearly understood that my playback system is definately a weak link in the chain. A really weak link! Such a weak link, that I could have easily cobwebbed a really great speaker design. I figured this out listening to music I have not heard for awhile. While the music did indeed sound better then my former system, it still had some of the same "flaws" in it. New speakers, new amps, must be that 20 year old player! Flaws are not in my truck system! In fact I heard the same crystalline sound thru my past systems - JBL control 5's, Jensen 3-ways, and Meadowlark driven thru a Pioneer DS1 reciever then a McIntosh C-22 re-issue pre, and MC-150 amp. I sold that system to buy my house! I never heard that system thru a good source! (Is that why it sounded so good with my recordings in the store, and not at home!) I always thought that you could have great speakers and a crappy system and still get great sound. Opps! Yes, I can be a little thick sometimes (I was 25 back then)! That is okay, I like my house, and I have a feeling I will out due that system for way less money and a lot more fun
Bottom line, if you have been following this thread, deciding whether to build Avebury, and you want a system that will bring out the passion you have invested in your amps and source, go for it!
May the force be with you!
Allen
Jurassic Park
Just got done watching Jurassic Park, THX edition on Laser disk. Very Impressive. The analog tracks presented a smoother dialog and mid-range, but I actually prefered the digital tracks that presented a lower and more dynamic bass output! In the end, I was switching between the two - analog on the dialog scenes and digital for the big T-rex scenes! I was very happy with how Avebury handled the bass, I could still feel the Raptores and esp the T-rex stomping around. Did not miss the sub-woofer at all! Maybe miss the higher powered amp, but the clipping was less noticable on this particular movie (enough higher harmonics to mask clipping?) This points out just how subjective sound can be at times. Digital still sounds "off" somehow, but it had better band width on this particular movie. A lot can be said about how recordings are processed here also. All and all, very encouraging. I am glad I am getting down to the truth of the matter here.
I have a little bit of time off, before my new contract starts at work, so...
(New contract with holidays, vacation, and medical, I can wait a couple of weeks for that!) All the glory goes to God on that one, becuase I did not see that one coming!
As I do need to carefully plan out my money usage, eventhough I have a lot going on in my yard services business, I am getting back in the shop to finish these cabinets! That will pass the time until I can "afford" to get the DAC. Yes, I know, you all have been waiting a long time! Well, Avebury has finally proved its worth, thanks to Lightspeed and this long learning experience of finding out the true shortcomings of my system, my room and my thinking! Oh, and we can not forget all the distractions of eye surguries and the such
God Bless
Allen
Just got done watching Jurassic Park, THX edition on Laser disk. Very Impressive. The analog tracks presented a smoother dialog and mid-range, but I actually prefered the digital tracks that presented a lower and more dynamic bass output! In the end, I was switching between the two - analog on the dialog scenes and digital for the big T-rex scenes! I was very happy with how Avebury handled the bass, I could still feel the Raptores and esp the T-rex stomping around. Did not miss the sub-woofer at all! Maybe miss the higher powered amp, but the clipping was less noticable on this particular movie (enough higher harmonics to mask clipping?) This points out just how subjective sound can be at times. Digital still sounds "off" somehow, but it had better band width on this particular movie. A lot can be said about how recordings are processed here also. All and all, very encouraging. I am glad I am getting down to the truth of the matter here.
I have a little bit of time off, before my new contract starts at work, so...
(New contract with holidays, vacation, and medical, I can wait a couple of weeks for that!) All the glory goes to God on that one, becuase I did not see that one coming!
As I do need to carefully plan out my money usage, eventhough I have a lot going on in my yard services business, I am getting back in the shop to finish these cabinets! That will pass the time until I can "afford" to get the DAC. Yes, I know, you all have been waiting a long time! Well, Avebury has finally proved its worth, thanks to Lightspeed and this long learning experience of finding out the true shortcomings of my system, my room and my thinking! Oh, and we can not forget all the distractions of eye surguries and the such
God Bless
Allen
That is a SAE 2200
A freind of mine sent me home with this tonight... He wanted me to give it a looking over so he could sell it...
There seems to be something about this amp, maybe something special. I noticed people restore these amps. This one works. It seems to need a lot of input gain to reach full power (100 watts RMS, 200 peak), and I notice the bulb tester lights up on start up, and glows faintly even with no sound, but it does work. My chip amps are more transparent, but I like the power and body of this SAE amp. My gut is telling me, if I was to do an overhual on this thing, I could very well gain more transparentcy and have something very special indeed...
Thoughts anyone???
I have not bought this yet, but I am feeling a strong draw to.
Allen
A freind of mine sent me home with this tonight... He wanted me to give it a looking over so he could sell it...
There seems to be something about this amp, maybe something special. I noticed people restore these amps. This one works. It seems to need a lot of input gain to reach full power (100 watts RMS, 200 peak), and I notice the bulb tester lights up on start up, and glows faintly even with no sound, but it does work. My chip amps are more transparent, but I like the power and body of this SAE amp. My gut is telling me, if I was to do an overhual on this thing, I could very well gain more transparentcy and have something very special indeed...
Thoughts anyone???
I have not bought this yet, but I am feeling a strong draw to.
Allen
Since you asked . . . Any of the Kenwood "Basic" series Amps (M1, M1A, M1D, M2, M2A) are better amps. In several vintage circles the SAE products don't get a lot of popularity. They seem to be a step behind the other contemporaneous manufacturers on reliability and they make some odd choice in design, as you have noted on gain structure.
If you want power and body, look no further than a Kenwood M2/M2a or one of the big Yamahas.
If you want power and body, look no further than a Kenwood M2/M2a or one of the big Yamahas.
I don't know about the sound, but much, much more important is the fact that it has a vast bank of LEDs along the front panel. That alone makes it worth the asking price.
LOL
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