Hey for once I agree, hence my comment about how irrelevant this was to the music.
In fact this sort of thing is the worst excess of the HiFi disease, listening to sounds, not music.
It does give some indication of the ability to seperate parts of the mix and of resolution, but unless it all gels together, it's pointless.
This often has more to do with maximising output power levels when using suppressed carrier transmission methods, or modulation levels and S/N on other forms.
The bandwidth limit is a necessity due to the allowable occupied bandwidth, but I can't say that the limit ever increased intelligibility within the context of audio only. In fact the dynamic changes often give more audible clues to the speech than when compressed, providing S/N ratio's are good.
Jocko, it's on my Christmas list
Andy.
To me it’s all part of the fun of diy. It’s just like discussing a part of an amp, a speaker or whatever component in a chain. Except there are some more emotions and fewer maths.
For who might be interested, the Pink Floyd album has been of great influence for me and certainly for many other people here. I was 15 then and one can easily imagine what an impact it had on our young generation. I’m still happy I grow up with the music of those days. Beatles, Stones, Floyd to name a few big ones.
It happens to be the 30th anniversary and the album has also been released on SACD (Which I don’t own).
And yes, I fully enjoyed listening to all the tracks again, not only the airport piece, not only ‘The Great Gig In The Sky’ which gave me the shivers again when hearing it. I enjoyed unpacking the old records (don’t ask me why I have three copies), cleaning them and my cartridge to get the best sound out of them. I even recorded some pieces on the hard disk to prevent the record from being damaged from repeating same tracks. I also enjoyed doing some research, finding lyrics on the net, which revealed that Floyd is still very alive and kicking. It’s amazing how many people are still passionate by this music. Don’t get me wrong here, I love all kind of music and I’m certainly not a Floyd adept, neither a nostalgic.
So, still for the interested, here’s what I found.
You can find this a hundred times on the net.
Years ago I read a paper about ‘The Great Gig’. It described very well the Five Stages of the Dying Process Replace the religious parts with whatever you like
When in a “good“ mood it’s even nicer to listen to The Great Gig with this wisdom in mind, for what it’s worth.
Some people link the whole album to the Wizard of Oz, also for what it’s worth.
Here is a nice and touchy review.
/Hugo – It’s only audio (Jean-Paul)
For who might be interested, the Pink Floyd album has been of great influence for me and certainly for many other people here. I was 15 then and one can easily imagine what an impact it had on our young generation. I’m still happy I grow up with the music of those days. Beatles, Stones, Floyd to name a few big ones.
It happens to be the 30th anniversary and the album has also been released on SACD (Which I don’t own).
And yes, I fully enjoyed listening to all the tracks again, not only the airport piece, not only ‘The Great Gig In The Sky’ which gave me the shivers again when hearing it. I enjoyed unpacking the old records (don’t ask me why I have three copies), cleaning them and my cartridge to get the best sound out of them. I even recorded some pieces on the hard disk to prevent the record from being damaged from repeating same tracks. I also enjoyed doing some research, finding lyrics on the net, which revealed that Floyd is still very alive and kicking. It’s amazing how many people are still passionate by this music. Don’t get me wrong here, I love all kind of music and I’m certainly not a Floyd adept, neither a nostalgic.
So, still for the interested, here’s what I found.
You can find this a hundred times on the net.
Years ago I read a paper about ‘The Great Gig’. It described very well the Five Stages of the Dying Process Replace the religious parts with whatever you like
When in a “good“
mood it’s even nicer to listen to The Great Gig with this wisdom in mind, for what it’s worth.Some people link the whole album to the Wizard of Oz, also for what it’s worth.
Source
Here is a nice and touchy review.
/Hugo – It’s only audio (Jean-Paul)
During that PA anouncement when he is running around and you can hear his foot steps, what kind of sound stage does your system provide.
With my DSOM LP I can hear him running not only left and right, but clearly front and back. The LP provides the mind eye view of a large empty terminal with depth as well as width. This is not so apparent on my CD, even the new 30 year non-SACD version.
With my DSOM LP I can hear him running not only left and right, but clearly front and back. The LP provides the mind eye view of a large empty terminal with depth as well as width. This is not so apparent on my CD, even the new 30 year non-SACD version.
You said that "If I'm listening intently, even repeatedly, it's often hopeless".
Isn't intent and repeatibility a requirement for DBLT? If so, in your case the tests might not work properly, as your judgement is hopeless under such conditions.
I'm not making it up, just trying to come to certain conclusions based on what you've said previously
Isn't intent and repeatibility a requirement for DBLT? If so, in your case the tests might not work properly, as your judgement is hopeless under such conditions.
I'm not making it up, just trying to come to certain conclusions based on what you've said previously
Re: Re: Mwp
Agreed.
My system is far from "high-quality", yet i could make out those lyrics quite clearly.
Playing a HQ encoded MP3 from a PC soundcard, a crappy preamp, noninv gainclone and cheapy speakers (philips tweeters, 5" response woofer).
Although, i have always thought i have "good ears"... i know i can still hear ~18Khz clearly and those 16khz tones in recently mastered CDs which most people dont notice **** me off.
Steve Eddy said:
Agreed.
My system is far from "high-quality", yet i could make out those lyrics quite clearly.
Playing a HQ encoded MP3 from a PC soundcard, a crappy preamp, noninv gainclone and cheapy speakers (philips tweeters, 5" response woofer).
Although, i have always thought i have "good ears"... i know i can still hear ~18Khz clearly and those 16khz tones in recently mastered CDs which most people dont notice **** me off.
Peter Daniel said:You said that "If I'm listening intently, even repeatedly, it's often hopeless".
Isn't intent and repeatibility a requirement for DBLT? If so, in your case the tests might not work properly, as your judgement is hopeless under such conditions.
I'm not making it up, just trying to come to certain conclusions based on what you've said previously
Blind listening simply means that the listener doesn't know the identity of what they're listening to. Hasn't anything to do with HOW they go about the actual listening. They can listen in the same fashion they normally do when listening for differences.
And for what it's worth, we're talking here about the intelligibility of language which involves rather different brain function than qualitative assessment of music. And in my own experience, I've never noticed qualitative differences leaping out at me like song lyrics have when listening "peripherally." So for me anyway the phenomenon seems to be a language thing.
se
I partially agree that how clearly you can hear lyrics and background sounds does not mean that you are listening to a 'good' system.
In my own case, I find it hard to distinguish certain sounds. For instance, the major stumbling block that I have with learning another language (apart from being English ) is that when listening to that language, I cannot easily detect where one word ends and the next begins.
The problem also affects how well I hear detail in music but there is no doubt that some systems make it easier to hear certain sounds and lyrics than others and I consider that a plus point.
I still say that the IGC's best quality is the clarity with which it presents music to the listener and that is why I think that this thread is not so 'off-topic'!
After listening to the airport announcement the last couple of evenings, I have then listened to the rest of the DSOTM album and enjoyed it as much as the first time I heard it nearly 30 years ago so if we have encouraged anybody to get it out and play it again, that is no bad thing.
Of coursse, we won't enjoy music if we sit there litening for one particular detail, but learning to pick out detail is a part of learning to assess hi-fi more objectively and should not be dismissed entirely.
One more link to add to the ones posted by netlink is the DSOTHM 30th Anniversary site .
In my own case, I find it hard to distinguish certain sounds. For instance, the major stumbling block that I have with learning another language (apart from being English
) is that when listening to that language, I cannot easily detect where one word ends and the next begins.The problem also affects how well I hear detail in music but there is no doubt that some systems make it easier to hear certain sounds and lyrics than others and I consider that a plus point.
I still say that the IGC's best quality is the clarity with which it presents music to the listener and that is why I think that this thread is not so 'off-topic'!
After listening to the airport announcement the last couple of evenings, I have then listened to the rest of the DSOTM album and enjoyed it as much as the first time I heard it nearly 30 years ago so if we have encouraged anybody to get it out and play it again, that is no bad thing.
Of coursse, we won't enjoy music if we sit there litening for one particular detail, but learning to pick out detail is a part of learning to assess hi-fi more objectively and should not be dismissed entirely.
One more link to add to the ones posted by netlink is the DSOTHM 30th Anniversary site .
This is what I wanted to find out: was Peter with his exceptional ears and Gainclone able to hear it. It would have made me build a Gainclone.Nuuk said:
To compare with my system:
First few listenings were done with Technics SL1210/Stanton 681/
Super crap phono preamp from an old Sanyo JCX2200 receiver/Output receiver to B&W802 Series one. Too much background noise from the workplace. Second tests: Same turntable/cartridge/preamp but then to the line input of a Soundblaster Live recorded on hard disk with Cooledit. Headphones: Beyer Dynamic DT990Pro. The headphone out of the receiver sounded better then the headphone out from the soundblaster
Played a bit with the Cooledit filters to no reveal.I agree completely and this is usually not the way I listen to music. Indeed, listening to sound kills the music.
On the other hand, don't you think that Alan Parsons had to listen very analytically when making such a 3D masterpiece?I can’t compare with the CD but this is truly a nice example of perfect 3D audio. Roxy Music’s Love Is The drug is a fine example of the opposite. There is almost no soundstage in the footsteps at the beginning. (CD-version)roddyama said:
I bought the remastered version of Berlin a while ago. It's lifeless and I'm rather disappointed. Same applies probably to this album.
I wonder why an old record still 'seems' to sound better then a high tech remastered version?
/Hugo
Netlist, I would say that if you haven't heard a Gainclone, then you will have quite a surprise when you do hear one and listen to familiar recordings through it.
One of my friends who had no idea what a chip amp was heard mine one evening and has now built his own and another set for one of his friends who uses them in a hi-end system.
The friend had tried quite a few expensive amplifiers in his system but the IGC's are head-and-shoulders above anything that he had tried before.
Both my friends (and others who have heard the IGC's) agree that they dig out more detail and 'bring to life' many albums that had been long-since left on the shelf with other eqipment.
I also agree that it is easy to fall into the trap of listening for one or two aspects of the 'hi-fi presentation' and missing out on the enjoyment of the music. A correspondent of mine who is a concert pianist tells me that it is difficult for him to listen to music without becoming totally focussed on the technical performance!
The truth is that if you are putting together a hi-fi system DIY style, you do need to hold these 'test' sessions to get the best from your system. The knack is knowing when to 'switch off' from being a builder and just being a listener for the sake of enjoying the music.
I also think that Steve Eddy was misunderstood when he said that he best heard details when not concentrating on them. That is true for most of us as our 'subconsious' mind is many time more powerful than the 'conscious' mind, and not so distracted by other thoughts! Steve wasn't saying that he would audition a hi-fi in that way.
One of my friends who had no idea what a chip amp was heard mine one evening and has now built his own and another set for one of his friends who uses them in a hi-end system.
The friend had tried quite a few expensive amplifiers in his system but the IGC's are head-and-shoulders above anything that he had tried before.
Both my friends (and others who have heard the IGC's) agree that they dig out more detail and 'bring to life' many albums that had been long-since left on the shelf with other eqipment.
I also agree that it is easy to fall into the trap of listening for one or two aspects of the 'hi-fi presentation' and missing out on the enjoyment of the music. A correspondent of mine who is a concert pianist tells me that it is difficult for him to listen to music without becoming totally focussed on the technical performance!
The truth is that if you are putting together a hi-fi system DIY style, you do need to hold these 'test' sessions to get the best from your system. The knack is knowing when to 'switch off' from being a builder and just being a listener for the sake of enjoying the music.
I also think that Steve Eddy was misunderstood when he said that he best heard details when not concentrating on them. That is true for most of us as our 'subconsious' mind is many time more powerful than the 'conscious' mind, and not so distracted by other thoughts! Steve wasn't saying that he would audition a hi-fi in that way.
You beat me to it. Well then, I'll build one.Nuuk said:
I probably will not build the High-Peter-Tech version, still you guys made me very curious.Could be, although closing my eyes helps a lot in concentrating.
It helps probably because then a part of the brain doesn't have to focus on what we see and the imaginary part starts working.
A fine example is the 'man with the footsteps' from Rod. Listen to it with your eyes closed and you will see the man walk.
/Hugo
Steve:
>We're talking here about the intelligibility of language which involves rather different brain function than qualitative assessment of music.<
Really? I studied classical music and compositional theory, and to me, at least Western classical music is a language of communication with a logical system. When I listen to music, I am not only listening for sounds, but noting how chord, scale, rhythm, tempi etc. give shape to the piece, and also how each note, bar or phrase either works with the logic of the piece or against it. It's very much like listening to a play, noting the actors' words, inflection and phrasing, comprehending the dialog, and judging whether the actor is doing a good job or not. For me, it is far harder to judge how good of a job the actor is doing when the language is one that I am unfamiliar with; and when I listen to music, how I get into a piece depends strongly on how well I can grasp the composer and performer's intent or not.
The faults that I find with the majority of audio systems are usually tied to the various hurdles that they place in the way of my being able to fully comprehend and appreciate the music. The more I can comprehend, the more I approach the music like a conversation in a familiar language. All too frequently, however, the music remains at the collection-of-sounds level, and to me it feels like trying to make sense of a discussion in a foreign language.
Nuuk:
>A correspondent of mine who is a concert pianist tells me that it is difficult for him to listen to music without becoming totally focused on the technical performance!<
I concur. Especially when the performance is of a piece that I know, or on my preferred instrument (the piano), it is difficult to listen to the music without mentally playing along and/or critiquing the performance. Same thing happens whether the performance is live or recorded.
regards, jonathan carr
>We're talking here about the intelligibility of language which involves rather different brain function than qualitative assessment of music.<
Really? I studied classical music and compositional theory, and to me, at least Western classical music is a language of communication with a logical system. When I listen to music, I am not only listening for sounds, but noting how chord, scale, rhythm, tempi etc. give shape to the piece, and also how each note, bar or phrase either works with the logic of the piece or against it. It's very much like listening to a play, noting the actors' words, inflection and phrasing, comprehending the dialog, and judging whether the actor is doing a good job or not. For me, it is far harder to judge how good of a job the actor is doing when the language is one that I am unfamiliar with; and when I listen to music, how I get into a piece depends strongly on how well I can grasp the composer and performer's intent or not.
The faults that I find with the majority of audio systems are usually tied to the various hurdles that they place in the way of my being able to fully comprehend and appreciate the music. The more I can comprehend, the more I approach the music like a conversation in a familiar language. All too frequently, however, the music remains at the collection-of-sounds level, and to me it feels like trying to make sense of a discussion in a foreign language.
Nuuk:
>A correspondent of mine who is a concert pianist tells me that it is difficult for him to listen to music without becoming totally focused on the technical performance!<
I concur. Especially when the performance is of a piece that I know, or on my preferred instrument (the piano), it is difficult to listen to the music without mentally playing along and/or critiquing the performance. Same thing happens whether the performance is live or recorded.
regards, jonathan carr
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