Andy Graddon said:
Thanks for the link.
So, these (to the original ears) competed very favorably with the famed magico minis, exotic glue notwithstanding.
I have no real problem per se with boutique manufacturers charging what they do, it's a free market economy.
I only get my dander up when people claim some sort of 'magic', beyond the ken of mere mortals. No, that's usually successful marketing, nothing more.
There is TOO much BS in hi end hi fi, don't come across it much on a forum like this, which is very much down to earth and practical, but go to a normal hi fi forum and then watch the rubbish fly!!
So, not to set out and bag particularly the minis (which by all accounts sound great to a lot of people) but the 'demystifying' and ''de-BS'ing" of another aspect of hi end hi-fi can only be healthy.
NOT that the run of the mill audiophile will see this thread ....unfortunately for them the mystical pronouncements of golden eared reviewers with exotic cabling etc will continue to have great resonance (and we know uncontrolled resonances are bad right!)
OK, so the consensus seems to be the minis could be cloned if wanted.
WHICH speaker would come closest to being 'unclonable' and why?
I see that DIYers are willing to take on seemingly impossible tasks, and I honestly don't hold much hope for the success of the latest cloning attempt (which is already in the feasability discussion stages) of Basak koklukaya ha ha, but leaving aside say a solid CNC'd steel billet baffle as an example, what would give the knowledgable and dedicated DIYer the most difficulty?
Mainly interested in some clever, unique and innovative technical aspect (not some resin gooped over a network in a vain attempt to stop people seeing just how basic the network is on a $40 000 pair of speakers!!) that makes someone go 'wow, never thought of that before,how clever'.
Do these type of speakers exist?? or is it like most things in life, there is rarely any new thoughts, it's all been done before (and usually long ago).
terry j said:
Sorry ,you make me forget my holiday brake once more but whose "consensus"??
So far two pros said it wouldn't be financially feasible (if technically possible when used required magic glue
.Salas who seems to know a lot never said straight that he could make exact sounding copy and any other of DIY experts did not participate in this useless thread. Maybe we should ask Zakh?? Some wise man said that Hi-End is the only high-tech industry where and amateur in his basement in a couple hours can match a High-End product performance .
Instead of cloning you guys should ask Saltuk how this speaker can sound any good?? It must distort like mo-fo . 8" cone driven with 100ths of watts doing bass and midrange ??? Give me a brake.
Xo Xo
limono said:
Nobody has asked Saltuk how this speaker can sound any good because there's precisely a very good reason for that.
If you can't figure out that reason then maybe more research is needed.
What gives? One minute your fine and gunning for Saltuk the next your questioning his auditioning and choice of loudspeaker.
I say that if to prove a theoretical point, we do have the knowledge base to match any stuff, given the funding and time. I also maintain that practically its useless to both extremes. For one, the hardcore DIY creates, not copies. For two, the typical Hi-End show goer drools over ready made appealing items and does not have the background and time to exactly copy and aesthetically match. That is why I suggested finding a nice second hand deal first. The real (hidden) core of the thread was myth busting IMHO. Non doable by any means VS non worthy doing . I am with you on sensitivity limono, I will never go from my 95dB direct radiating tower 3 way, to 81 or 83 dB 2 way stand mount. There is no point to prove any point. The best myth busting answer was given by life and thread starter: At $3k you miss only the myth of $22k. And best of all, our Danny put his hand in the $3k one. The circle has been completed. As for super difficult hi-tech aluminum stuff, imagine a stinking rich sculptor DIYing along with his Architect and Aviation mechanic mates. All is potentially possible. For example, there is a guy in Greece who owns a mega metallurgy unit complete with its own harbor that DIYs! He has cryoed some kgs of copper ribbon wire for many of us here, for free. Do you think he cant afford Magico? He has a Learjet! The matter is what is logically needed by whom and why.
m0tion said:
Sure , send the money and I will proceed .Of course ,I never heard this Usher speaker which will guarantee that final product will sound as good or even better than original. Personally I'm into less is more philosophy and prefer crossoverless designs but if you're one of "those " I will throw dex denx so you can adjust to your liking (there is alway Zaph) or I will give you a couple of those fancy capacitors so you can adjust the amount of air circulation.
I already contacted mr.lang long long from Bangkok to send me those Usher drivers .Parts Express have them for as much as $100 each -bunch of thieves !Good mr lang long long will happily provide them for $30 each . You gotta like those guys .As to the cabinet this cheap Sonus Faber ripoff is not to my liking yeke yeke .I'm rather after classic form follow function style but of course if you like those I'm sure Home Depot have something appropriate . And don't you worry about those alloy cables the are using , we all know what we know . If you insist I'll spray them (damn cables ) with lumi paint end even your dog won't hear the difference. Of course there is always a chance that my mama say I should better get some work and stop playing with those damn speakers and in that case i will send all the shebang to my best DIY friend (you know who).He usually works for free but sometimes he fancy himself as a designer and want money .Just ignore him.
Last update.
I see they using those horrible BL tweeters which I couldn't find in Parts Express catalog .Mr Long long said it can take a while to source but never mind they can't be that different than their other models (I can spray them too if you insist)
But you know what , I have to say I have plenty of high end drivers in my storage but I'm telling you that I have a midi tower from Sony with default speakers .Something struck me today and I put them (speakers)in my main system you could not believe ,layers and layers of layers ,wide soundstage and air like mountain breeze .
Yours for only $150 , Hurry Mama needs a holiday gift!
All the jokes aside those Usher speakers in order to appear on the market for $3k must cost below $300 to manufacture (I think they cost way less) which makes it totally possible to clone for $500.
Regards, L
Given the access to the drivers and crossover schematic, I would estimate $1200-1500 to build just one pair privately and fast, using same finish, cabling, coils & caps. It can be made for $500 if projecting for a hundred pairs. With no access to the schematic it can even get reverse engineered from the measurements. But a thief with self esteem will open one up anyway. I estimate $300-500 material and work cost to the Taiwan factory, $1000 export price list to the American importer. This is an honest product as the market 'ethics' go, with Far East industrial cost efficiency backing it up. Plus it will make much more money than a statement $30K stand mount for the commercial chain, because it gives stellar performance in an accessible price category, having the potential to sell in thousands, globally. All this is just indicative and I suggest to no one stealing another's bread. Go create, its much more satisfying.
limono said:
Good fun post, I like that for what it was.
Still don't really understand your position though. The original question was 'can we clone the minis?', and forgetting all the sidetracks that occurred along the way the unspoken question was really (I assume) 'and end up with the same sound at a cheaper price'.
I believe that the actual box construction is perfectly do-able at home, did you ever check out the examples that Andy had on his site? (he took them down evidently, but left the links there). That should give you an insight into the feasibility of cloning that aspect.
You maintained that the 'unknowns' in the construction (exotic glues, the all so secret driver modifications, what sort of internal wiring is used) collectively add up to contribution to the sound that is significant, significant enough that by not copying them exactly meant that the sound being pursued could not be gotten.
I think you have fallen for the marketing of the hi-end industry and attribute waaay to much significance to them. When asked the personal experience you've had with the change in sound from different glues (for example) it seems there was no experience (?)
Ultimately you are correct though, a true clone will be identical in every respect, which will mean the modified drivers need to be used.
However, if you are a little less literal in the question, and take it to mean 'can we duplicate the sound' whilst maintaining a very close appearance to the original, then that is when the answer surely becomes Yes, we can clone the minis.
The key question here of course revolves around how the minis sound. To the ears of the OP they sounded magnificent, so much so it led to his question.
Taking all that together, and then discovering that the magnificent magico sound was at least equalled by a commercial pair of speakers for around a tenth of the price....
Then you go off (seemingly) on a tangent about how horrible they look and how they only cost around $300 to make (or whatever you said)?????????????
Does that not however simply prove "our" point rather than yours??
Know what makes good speakers? Good solid audio engineering.
NO magic or 'blinding insights' that occur to the designer.
There is plenty of good solid audio engineering on this site (no, not me, but certainly from many of the contributors to this thread)
Member
Joined 2003
limono said:
The point is that you were wrong in much of your talk. People tried to reason with you on this yet you still remained blind and ignorant. And when the person you so championed found an alternate and equal package to the Mini, you tried to poison and sour that choice just as you had done throughout this thread.
Pity you.
limono said:
Why so hard on DIY? Have you spent some time building only to be disappointed?
Some of what you said was the truth and well reasoned. Its just that the anti DIY stuff was never likely to go down well.
Hope whatever you build or buy gives you some enjoyment anyway, that's what its all about.
ShinOBIWAN said:
That and just flaming, looking for attention
. Is OK, it spiced up this thread.Of the "ready made" speakers I've heard, I can't say I'm in love with any, so I'd never try to "clone" the sound of a speaker.
For me, DIY speaker building is not about the end result anyhow, it's about doing it.
It's a trip, not a destination.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.