..same drivers, OEM color change on the later models.
I'm not fond of most of the Seas drivers either - still to over-damped, while lacking some of the clarity that the Accutons have. (..but at least I've never heard them sound "zippy" with an emphasis on the leading edge.. or "bottomed-out" sounding either - both traits I've heard in TIDAL loudspeakers.)
Some of the Zellatons (like the Gorlich I mentioned) can have Accuton clarity with good tone.. the only problem is that most of their drivers have mediocre suspensions and higher non-linear distortion.
I suppose if I needed high power handling and/or a smaller cabinet for the quasi-Raptor I mentioned, I'd probably spec. the Visaton TIW 250 XS.
TIW 250 XS - 8 Ohm
Visaton has some of the best suspensions - with uniformly low non-linear distortion. The honeycomb core glass diaphragm should provide plenty of detail up to 800 Hz (..if perhaps not quite what the Gorlich drivers can provide).
I should also note that Accuton has some new bass drivers that will be available "soon" (not ceramic, but honeycomb core with aluminum skins):
http://www.accuton.de/company/index.php?&m1=5&m2=15#news_23
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around 300 US, similar to the Excel 10" I believe.
The Raptor has a crossover around 750 Hz (and "steep").. so at least with a design similar to that it should be more than acceptable:
Attachments
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It's good to know the Topicstarter has some friends who are really good at designing a X-over. I was under the impression this was a first project. Hence my "joke" about try taming Dayton/ Amt. My apologies for beeing so harsh. Do spend enormous amounts on space age materials to get a better speaker than Magico and Kharma. The visaton ceramic tweeter should be rather good / albeit on a budget. All the luck with this high end speaker. I think there is a good reason most ceramic / metal / hard cone drivers have so so suspension, highish Rms. Imho the suspension is used to dampen the ringing.
to get a better speaker than Magico and Kharma. The visaton ceramic tweeter should be rather good / albeit on a budget. All the luck with this high end speaker. I think there is a good reason most ceramic / metal / hard cone drivers have so so suspension, highish Rms. Imho the suspension is used to dampen the ringing.
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This depends a lot on the crossover and loading.. but most designs I've heard using them.A few however..
Stiff cones (magnesium, aluminum, glass, ceramic, diamond, beryllium) will easily sound unnatural and fatiguing. Paper is the easiest to work with but also has the least potential for resolution.
Wayne, is there any speaker with ceramic cone that sound good to you? We can regard that as "reference" of what ceramic can do.
I love stiff cones
Details are not a cone break-up or its material byproduct.
If one would like to think about details which are coming
from recorded music, than one place where details
conversion happens is the place where voice coil lives.
I remember very well a comparison I made between a
magnetostat tweeter and a high quality silk dome.
Magneto had a very lightweight foil and according to factory
strong NeFeB magnets, but boy did that driver swallow
details like crazy. Secondly, its resonant frequency was
so poorly controlled, like I had bought a 3 dollar product
which had to be compensated by a XO filter. The soft dome
did exactly the opposite. Lots of details, no problem with
weak magnet. Dome without any peaks what so ever.
Regarding your thinking on higher order filters killing the
impulse response, that is a one big wrong conclusion. The
good sound does not come from the perfect looking impulse
plot, morelike from great integration of the drivers used without
any peaks and dips. If the superb looks of driver's impulse
response with no XO parts installed is a perfection, then
why do people bother making XO filters? The so called
ringing of the impulse with higher order filters produces
steeper response slopes and that is it. IMO
That cone for the ATD 7" is supposed to be a curvilinear Titanium sandwich structure.
It is not the same as what the Gorlich/Zellaton drivers use.
Later,
Wolf
Found the pic googling for ATD zellaton
Lojzek, I don't think detail is the same as breakup. Afaik it's pistonic movement that brings detail out in the harder cones. About crossover's ringing, impulse this is what i ment:
Siri's Killer Note
Lojzek, I don't think detail is the same as breakup. Afaik it's pistonic movement that brings detail out in the harder cones. About crossover's ringing, impulse this is what i ment:
Siri's Killer Note
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Phenoholic,
the movement is what transfers the details out, but its the force
that makes it move. I will take a look at Troel's text later.
I told you how it works in reality. Try working with scan speak
mid drivers and you will appretiate higher order filters because
I know not of any better way to building up pressure in region
where it does not exist with lower orders and this is what makes
it sound excellent.
the movement is what transfers the details out, but its the force
that makes it move. I will take a look at Troel's text later.
I told you how it works in reality. Try working with scan speak
mid drivers and you will appretiate higher order filters because
I know not of any better way to building up pressure in region
where it does not exist with lower orders and this is what makes
it sound excellent.
Lojzek,
I heard a lot of ceramic speakers with higher order x-overs, the detail is stil there, the "life" for a better word was gone. On the other hand i heard ceramic speakers with 1 order x-over, life was back, so was the ringing....It's hard to be precise with language, i hope you get what i mean. I do understand the pressure thing with the Scan Speak mids. But this thread is about making better speakers than Kharma and Magico so lets see how the Topicstarter plans on doing this.
I heard a lot of ceramic speakers with higher order x-overs, the detail is stil there, the "life" for a better word was gone. On the other hand i heard ceramic speakers with 1 order x-over, life was back, so was the ringing....It's hard to be precise with language, i hope you get what i mean. I do understand the pressure thing with the Scan Speak mids. But this thread is about making better speakers than Kharma and Magico so lets see how the Topicstarter plans on doing this.
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Have to disagree , high order passive xovers kill the music , the speaker will sound lifeless by comparison...
Stiff cones (magnesium, aluminum, glass, ceramic, diamond, beryllium) will easily sound unnatural and fatiguing. Paper is the easiest to work with but also has the least potential for resolution.
Wayne, is there any speaker with ceramic cone that sound good to you? We can regard that as "reference" of what ceramic can do.
I love stiff cones
No Sir , i have not heard any of the highly regarded reference speakers using ceramic drivers , so i have no idea of how successful they are . I did meet another who had switched to Magico from a highly regarded brand using ceramic drivers and he was of the same opinion about the coloration ..
EA addresses this by aligning the spectral decay of all drivers, Kharma puts emphasis on off axis measurements because the more natural the reflections are the better they blend with the drivers.
A bad crossover design can very very easily introduce colorations, this is addressed by putting a notch filter in the crossover pushing break up out of the audible spectrum
You are certainly entitled to disagree. Higher order filters
don't kill music, the person who is clueless about how and
when to use them, does the actual killing. One thing for sure
is filters are not what one is after, rather good sonics and this
can be accomplished in more than one way. If acoustical response
is already steep by itself with 1st order, then it would not
make sense to pursuit a steeper one just for nothing. Gotta
be a reason for doing it actually.
I would love to learn more about aligning spectral decay's in the AE minimonitors.
the punchline of my TB & Dayton mini monitor joke. DL40LLF-01--????????????
China Wholesale - Divider Speaker - 54.05 - China service
At least one of them monitors is not made of space age stuff.
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I'm very satisfied with the performance of the Accutons in my speaker.
They match very good with the Raal, together they throw a large holographic sound.
It's more than a year since they're finished and I still listen a lot to them, that's a good sign
For a two way I would probably use an Accuton 7" bass-mid together with Raal 70-20XR (if you can find it) or one of the ScanSpeak beryllium tweeters.
Another nice 2-way is the XTZ divine 100.33, Accuton bass-mid + Visaton ceramic tweeter.
They match very good with the Raal, together they throw a large holographic sound.
It's more than a year since they're finished and I still listen a lot to them, that's a good sign
For a two way I would probably use an Accuton 7" bass-mid together with Raal 70-20XR (if you can find it) or one of the ScanSpeak beryllium tweeters.
Another nice 2-way is the XTZ divine 100.33, Accuton bass-mid + Visaton ceramic tweeter.
This could be interesting ATD driver and Visaton ceramic tweeter in a Transmissionline.
Strassacker: Speaker Building, Components
Could be inhouse modified to a ported design.
Strassacker: Speaker Building, Components
Could be inhouse modified to a ported design.
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