Johan; pity the "thread" question more directed towards the capacitor (alot easier to solve 
) ????
As I hear it, over decades of engineering and loud/playing/listening/teaching music, my differentiation of being able to detect miniscule differences in tone has been banged to pieces. I'm not alone.
So now I'm incapable of listening to resistors; if I can put in this way; my only weapon left at my disposal is the lab spectrum analyser; that if differences in resistor types can effect harmonic signatures, then alas we have some proof that something is up. Those of us who have worked in studio engineering should know the equiv noise of a 150 ohm resistor, is very low. Whatever peculiar is there is very low, granularity distortion, non-linearity or something out of the ether.
I base my theory on harmonics; for me, that's my last option left.
The snag is when well experienced listeners mention the word "ambience in the sound", (now this is something)= when comparing two identical A & B amps with near identical signatures with same loudspeakers in same positions somehow sound a bit different. This throws me out. Can you put your finger on it ? This where snake-oilers make their money by selling over-purified copper cable and cryo tubes.
Then as you rightly mention designing two identical tube amps each using a different type of resistor. To agree which circuit is the best ...........
I can design a 100W tube amp with 2,3,4,5,6,7 harmonic thd lower than 0.05% at full o/p, I am wasting my time because no two o/p trannies/tubes are identical, nor are the rise times so thd will vary as does other things. So I'm (wer'e) stuck.
richy
) ????As I hear it, over decades of engineering and loud/playing/listening/teaching music, my differentiation of being able to detect miniscule differences in tone has been banged to pieces. I'm not alone.
So now I'm incapable of listening to resistors; if I can put in this way; my only weapon left at my disposal is the lab spectrum analyser; that if differences in resistor types can effect harmonic signatures, then alas we have some proof that something is up. Those of us who have worked in studio engineering should know the equiv noise of a 150 ohm resistor, is very low. Whatever peculiar is there is very low, granularity distortion, non-linearity or something out of the ether.
I base my theory on harmonics; for me, that's my last option left.
The snag is when well experienced listeners mention the word "ambience in the sound", (now this is something)= when comparing two identical A & B amps with near identical signatures with same loudspeakers in same positions somehow sound a bit different. This throws me out. Can you put your finger on it ? This where snake-oilers make their money by selling over-purified copper cable and cryo tubes.
Then as you rightly mention designing two identical tube amps each using a different type of resistor. To agree which circuit is the best ...........
I can design a 100W tube amp with 2,3,4,5,6,7 harmonic thd lower than 0.05% at full o/p, I am wasting my time because no two o/p trannies/tubes are identical, nor are the rise times so thd will vary as does other things. So I'm (wer'e) stuck.
richy
KSTR said:
No, I don't have them. GU-50 can run with red plates, but no stains and other damages happen. Few ears ago one gassy 6P3S run away, but it ended in a dumpster. 6P15P with misaligned screen grids left from Pyramid-VII project don't look impressive. I keep them for triode usage.
Yes, I did. I'll e-mail you the answer. Now I am in the middle of disaster: I hoped to use Barracuda this Saturday, for the concert... Now I am going to redesign output stages a little bit, to limit output currents sharply.
analog_sa said:
Sorry to have to this to you, countryman (not personal) - if all who contributed to this thread are included in your "we" (and if not why not?):
NO, WE DON'T AGREE - please reread the lot again. And anyway truth is not democratic. The facts of science are not determined by majority vote - that's why we have wars.
Generally:
As my exit from this thread (not this forum); this is the sad procession of affairs I have mostly encountered in my long involvement with audio. When some avid supporting brigade of whatever can only come to a conclusion by ignoring those who disagreed, fair to them - never mind alternative evidence, whether that contains facts or not.
Human senses reign supreme!(Heads reverently bowed.)
I would be excused for concluding my visit to this thread by quoting others:
"Objective measurements of an amplifier's performance are unimportant compared with the subjective impression gained by listening tests. Where the two contradict, the objective results may be dismissed." (D.R.G. Self)
"Repeat anything often enough, and everybody will believe it." (Ken Kessler)
______________________________________________
[PS: Rich, I will respond to your good post later, in this space, but not as part of this topic.]
Hi,
Yummie...
We both have been through this kind of thread before, I think, so I know you know.
@Richwalters:
Surely you're aware of the old adaggio: "A resistor is a resistor, is a resistor". Ad nauseam.
While caps aren't merely capacitive, neither are resistors merely resistive.
A single resistor of brand X may not show its true colours, either on the sprectral anylizer or by listening, an entire amp using brand X throughout my well expose the colour of that resistor.
This may sound like babble from the likes of Harry Pearson of TAS to some but imagine having a pretty neutral to source amp for a source.
Now we'll mod this amp replacing all 1/4, 1/2 amd 1W resistors in the circuit with Holco resistors (I'm refering to the old ones with copper leads).
Supposedly the old amp put us on the third row in the concerthall (from a tonal balance perspective).
Now, listening to the modded amp, we find ourselves way farther back in the hall, the highs are a bit muted, the sound is still sweet but everything sounds more distant.
Can you see this on a spectral analyzer? Maybe. I dont know.
Now let's replace these Holco resistors with brand Y metalfilms.
Chances are the sound has brought us closer to the front row again with more stridency and perhaps also a bit more listening fatigue.
Is brand X better than brand Y?
Not necessarilly but it just shows that a lot of the same mistakes expose the nature of those resistors.
All in all it's a matter of balancing.
When people ask me what brand of resistor to use I can't give a straight answer.
You could say that picking resistors, or caps is not unlike tube rolling.
They all have a sound of their own.
Trick is to combine those so you obtain the balance you want.
Cheers,
analog_sa said:
Yummie...
We both have been through this kind of thread before, I think, so I know you know.
@Richwalters:
Surely you're aware of the old adaggio: "A resistor is a resistor, is a resistor". Ad nauseam.
While caps aren't merely capacitive, neither are resistors merely resistive.
A single resistor of brand X may not show its true colours, either on the sprectral anylizer or by listening, an entire amp using brand X throughout my well expose the colour of that resistor.
This may sound like babble from the likes of Harry Pearson of TAS to some but imagine having a pretty neutral to source amp for a source.
Now we'll mod this amp replacing all 1/4, 1/2 amd 1W resistors in the circuit with Holco resistors (I'm refering to the old ones with copper leads).
Supposedly the old amp put us on the third row in the concerthall (from a tonal balance perspective).
Now, listening to the modded amp, we find ourselves way farther back in the hall, the highs are a bit muted, the sound is still sweet but everything sounds more distant.
Can you see this on a spectral analyzer? Maybe. I dont know.
Now let's replace these Holco resistors with brand Y metalfilms.
Chances are the sound has brought us closer to the front row again with more stridency and perhaps also a bit more listening fatigue.
Is brand X better than brand Y?
Not necessarilly but it just shows that a lot of the same mistakes expose the nature of those resistors.
All in all it's a matter of balancing.
When people ask me what brand of resistor to use I can't give a straight answer.
You could say that picking resistors, or caps is not unlike tube rolling.
They all have a sound of their own.
Trick is to combine those so you obtain the balance you want.
Cheers,
fdegrove said:
I would really love to know the answer to this question. It's quite obvious that a lot of boutique components exploit subtle pleasing distortions to achieve a particular sound. Why would a single boutique resistor be immediately audible in a system with dozens of other resistors if it were completely transparent?
Recently conducted (again) some capacitor tests in my tube pre and the results were not pretty. The most expensive caps performed the most "signal processing" and my old cheap references (MIT RTX) came out surprisingly honest and open and closest to what a passive attenuator sounds.
This does not in any way dicourage the use of boutique components as their judicious use may yield a very desirable sound but they are not necessarily more transparent than some very ordinary parts. I wish there was a simple way to measure this as i hate these types of auditions. Otoh, my collection of "audiophile" recordings: Linn, FIM, Burmester, K2, Focal, Diana Krall, Patricia Barber and other unlistenable garbage gets a chance for a spin
On the one hand they are obviously not "gross" distortions as then they would probably be easy to measure. On the other, they magnify certain aspects of the soundfield and enhance various perceptions, like ambience, detail, tonality, image specificity, etc.
Ideally i would draw such conclusions only when comparing capacitors against a short piece of wire in a dc coupled amp but of course the lack of defined polarising voltage may be detrimental. So, the last time i tested them in an active tube preamp (choke loaded 5687) against the attenuator part of the preamp alone, gain matched.
The resistor example i used above should be even clearer. If a resistor of a different type is distortion free, then it's sonic signature should remain invisible when it replaces another one in an amp.. Yet listeners can easily recognise the presence of a single tantalum resistor loading a cartridge, even though the entire upstream amplification chain use only metal films.
Ideally i would draw such conclusions only when comparing capacitors against a short piece of wire in a dc coupled amp but of course the lack of defined polarising voltage may be detrimental. So, the last time i tested them in an active tube preamp (choke loaded 5687) against the attenuator part of the preamp alone, gain matched.
The resistor example i used above should be even clearer. If a resistor of a different type is distortion free, then it's sonic signature should remain invisible when it replaces another one in an amp.. Yet listeners can easily recognise the presence of a single tantalum resistor loading a cartridge, even though the entire upstream amplification chain use only metal films.
Hi,
Those aspects point to greater transparency which would be indicative of less distortion, not more. Or maybe I'm missing something?
As for tantalum resistors.
I always found them coloured although in a musically pleasing way.
Enhanced, slightly forward midrange making lyrics easier to follow.
Not sure it is a colouration but it sounds like that to me.
Favourite coupling cap to date, the venerable MIT RTX.
Cheers,
analog_sa said:
Those aspects point to greater transparency which would be indicative of less distortion, not more. Or maybe I'm missing something?
As for tantalum resistors.
I always found them coloured although in a musically pleasing way.
Enhanced, slightly forward midrange making lyrics easier to follow.
Not sure it is a colouration but it sounds like that to me.
Favourite coupling cap to date, the venerable MIT RTX.
Cheers,
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