Tested in house last night, still rather boomy even in my living room with a large doorway right next to the cabinet. Insulation arrived today, so hoping to pull it all back apart and add some damping this weekend... Still need to cut that center brace too. Just having one in the living room certainly commands your attention visually.
Thus far it sounds more like a subwoofer... Sounds above 140hz or so are pretty muddy, hopefully this cleans up with damping. Bass guitar rattles all the glassware in the kitchen and the pictures on the walls, but sounds overdone thus far if you crank it up.
With the volume low, the bass is full and effortless. With the volume turned up though, even with only 80 watts or so I'm pretty sure I'm exceeding Xmax, and the distortion is audible before then. The 20hz highpass filter is not in place yet, I'm hoping that helps - but was just listening to random music, so I wouldn't have expected much below 40 hz. Need to play around with the equalizer more as well. Still looking for that punch... underwhelmed so far, but only have the 1 cab built. Bracing, Damping, add highpass 20hz filter, play more with equalization, and build 2nd cabinet.. and we'll see what happens!
Thus far it sounds more like a subwoofer... Sounds above 140hz or so are pretty muddy, hopefully this cleans up with damping. Bass guitar rattles all the glassware in the kitchen and the pictures on the walls, but sounds overdone thus far if you crank it up.
With the volume low, the bass is full and effortless. With the volume turned up though, even with only 80 watts or so I'm pretty sure I'm exceeding Xmax, and the distortion is audible before then. The 20hz highpass filter is not in place yet, I'm hoping that helps - but was just listening to random music, so I wouldn't have expected much below 40 hz. Need to play around with the equalizer more as well. Still looking for that punch... underwhelmed so far, but only have the 1 cab built. Bracing, Damping, add highpass 20hz filter, play more with equalization, and build 2nd cabinet.. and we'll see what happens!
what is the xmax ?
tuned to 28hz, I think you need 140 watts to skip past a 4mm xmax (if I remember), but yes, you could be overloading below your tuning frequency.
my buddy said he had some short xmax 2 x 12's (in a 3 way I assume, not subs) that seemed punchy skipping past xmax. so punch can be harmonic distortion above 100hz (probably higher).
does the receiver driving the sub have a subsonic button ?
tuned to 28hz, I think you need 140 watts to skip past a 4mm xmax (if I remember), but yes, you could be overloading below your tuning frequency.
my buddy said he had some short xmax 2 x 12's (in a 3 way I assume, not subs) that seemed punchy skipping past xmax. so punch can be harmonic distortion above 100hz (probably higher).
does the receiver driving the sub have a subsonic button ?
the original 1951 Karlson 15 aka "K15" has good punch at less than 1/8" peak to peak. Coaxial preserve the original intent - some horn on top will work well and deliver more presence than a cone. Going to an 18K at the same bulk will generally, raise the LF cutoff a bit, sound more "mellow". K15 with a decent coax is a great setup.
once you have your Fane in place, it may come together and have the slam/punch you wish.
I like the idea of the 6th order reflex. My stuff is Karlson-centric, as they can give very good
subjective and objective punch.
I'll have to ask MMJ and xrk971 whether they think the results given by MMJ's fudge of the Acoustic Control 115BK cabinet in hornresp seems reasonable with regards to SPL and apparent "gain" below.
I've not seen K's go into excessive excursion below their cutoff. K15 seems to have a near-cone null or 36Hz while its input Z null is about a half octave higher.
here's a 1.2 scale 115BK loaded with the Dayton vs a 9 cubic foot reflex tuned ~23Hz with the Dayton - I could raise the tuning. In practice, shelf and R-J vents can tune around 15% lower than calculated. A 1.2 scale 115BK would be about 7.4 cubic feet external bulk - the same roughly as K15 but with a cutout for an 18" speaker. Historically, Karlson had his own K18 as evidenced by a brochure. After his passing and multiple licenses sold, Cetec Gauss came up with their own K18 ("5181") for bass guitar duty. Its said that JBL purchased the K patent and put the hammer down on others using it. (?)
when X has time, he'll come up with an XKi alignment for PA460-8
5181 - pretty big - about 10CF external
I like the idea of the 6th order reflex. My stuff is Karlson-centric, as they can give very good
subjective and objective punch.
I'll have to ask MMJ and xrk971 whether they think the results given by MMJ's fudge of the Acoustic Control 115BK cabinet in hornresp seems reasonable with regards to SPL and apparent "gain" below.
I've not seen K's go into excessive excursion below their cutoff. K15 seems to have a near-cone null or 36Hz while its input Z null is about a half octave higher.
here's a 1.2 scale 115BK loaded with the Dayton vs a 9 cubic foot reflex tuned ~23Hz with the Dayton - I could raise the tuning. In practice, shelf and R-J vents can tune around 15% lower than calculated. A 1.2 scale 115BK would be about 7.4 cubic feet external bulk - the same roughly as K15 but with a cutout for an 18" speaker. Historically, Karlson had his own K18 as evidenced by a brochure. After his passing and multiple licenses sold, Cetec Gauss came up with their own K18 ("5181") for bass guitar duty. Its said that JBL purchased the K patent and put the hammer down on others using it. (?)
when X has time, he'll come up with an XKi alignment for PA460-8
5181 - pretty big - about 10CF external
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Have you sealed up any gaps and used a gasket / bolted the driver in properly ? Also you haven't mentioned where you are crossing to mids / tweets. If you are just listening to the box on its own then the lack of midrange and treble will make it sound like a muffled mess.
Have you got any measurement equipment ?
I believe xmax on the pa460 is 6mm, so p-p should be about 1/2". In playing it on this receiver, it should have been getting 80w rms, with something like 150w "dynamic ", which i assume translates to peak watts.
In fairness,
-i'm only listening to one woofer, not the pair
-no damping in the cab
-and mid/highs were (laughably) provided by the tv, since having issues w/ dual receiver amps.
-also tried just the woofer on its own, which is of course missing a lot of the freq range.
I don't think the cab has any air leaks, and the front removable baffle is sealed with gasket tape from PE
.
Bolted in driver properly? Is there a specific method for large woofers? I botched the alignment of the hurricane nuts in the baffle, so regrettably they ended up bolted in with shcs and nylock nuts.
No measuring equipment, and no real prior experience setting this complex up. "How hard could it be?" Ha!
It may come down to getting a mic and running REW.
In fairness,
-i'm only listening to one woofer, not the pair
-no damping in the cab
-and mid/highs were (laughably) provided by the tv, since having issues w/ dual receiver amps.
-also tried just the woofer on its own, which is of course missing a lot of the freq range.
I don't think the cab has any air leaks, and the front removable baffle is sealed with gasket tape from PE
.
Bolted in driver properly? Is there a specific method for large woofers? I botched the alignment of the hurricane nuts in the baffle, so regrettably they ended up bolted in with shcs and nylock nuts.
No measuring equipment, and no real prior experience setting this complex up. "How hard could it be?" Ha!
It may come down to getting a mic and running REW.
depending upon tuning 80 watts would just about hit xmax around 40Hz - not sure of the spectral content of a lot of music today on how much power there would really be in that area. Drum tuning charts have 24" kick drums tuned at 50Hz. You might be clipping. I've nearly hit the backplate on an 18" RJ18 with too small an amp. It will sound louder and faster for sure when you add the Fane. I love drums - a big reason I use K. A k-tube gives the closest I've heard on hi-hat to real.
Theater organ should sound good on your system.
The sim below is straight. When I go to the lossy inductance model, things look
somewhat "worse" in response and displacement - nothing to worry about.
Lossy Inductance Model result - same input
Theater organ should sound good on your system.
The sim below is straight. When I go to the lossy inductance model, things look
somewhat "worse" in response and displacement - nothing to worry about.
Lossy Inductance Model result - same input
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One of your previous posts (#115) said you just had the driver sitting in the cutout, I assumed you meant it wasn't bolted in. (which could have been a reason for the excessive excursion?)
Without some sort of measuring gear you will struggle to get this set up properly. I think you said earlier that you were planning to cross as high as 750Hz which would probably require some EQ to deal with baffle step. Where is your xo point now and what slopes are you using ?
Just as an example for you my speakers are set up to follow the Harman curve and needed a 120Hz high pass on the receiver to get a close match to the acoustic 80Hz -6dB point. My subs also ended up with an 18dB/oct slope added to the receivers low pass to get the correct acoustic slope. I'd never have been able to do this by ear. (the attachment is the target curve I used)
Attachments
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Receiver preamp to active xo (low output) to receiver amp to woofer. Subwoofer is a separate animal, for HT only, yet to be built.
Organ does sound pretty good. Bass guitar and such that are a bit much. There's more punch than a single fisher 12, but not gobs more. I hope it comes together more with the fanes as well... Need to finalize a first box to try them in. Sealed looked good. Xki looked promising. Ported, not so much for a flat response, but if a big peak was wanted around 80-120 hz it certainly does that.
Organ does sound pretty good. Bass guitar and such that are a bit much. There's more punch than a single fisher 12, but not gobs more. I hope it comes together more with the fanes as well... Need to finalize a first box to try them in. Sealed looked good. Xki looked promising. Ported, not so much for a flat response, but if a big peak was wanted around 80-120 hz it certainly does that.
Rob, yes that was prior testing with the box laying faceup on the floor.
I think it may be tricky to get setup too... I will give it a try by ear, then think about some equipment.
Xo point was last set at 120-140hz, and its a 24db/oct slope. I just have an analog 10 band eq, nothing fancy and digital, so we'll have to see how that works... The active xo can only cross at the specific freq you set, you can't offset the high/low pass frequencies. Xo is an analog behringer cx2310.
It will certainly be interesting, thanks for adding your experience!
I think it may be tricky to get setup too... I will give it a try by ear, then think about some equipment.
Xo point was last set at 120-140hz, and its a 24db/oct slope. I just have an analog 10 band eq, nothing fancy and digital, so we'll have to see how that works... The active xo can only cross at the specific freq you set, you can't offset the high/low pass frequencies. Xo is an analog behringer cx2310.
It will certainly be interesting, thanks for adding your experience!
is the major "hit" in the ~110-220 octave, "slam" - an octave below? - or course it seems to be partly the way react to certain balance of mids highs to bass in a given speaker and perhaps where that speaker is placed (1pi 2pi 4pi)
that Fane xover-ed at 80-100 (just guessing) should be nice
https://i.imgur.com/RS0DDqQ.jpg
here's Tune-bot's tuning frequencies for common toms and kick (up to 24")
Tune Bot Drum Tuner
that Fane xover-ed at 80-100 (just guessing) should be nice
https://i.imgur.com/RS0DDqQ.jpg
here's Tune-bot's tuning frequencies for common toms and kick (up to 24")
Tune Bot Drum Tuner
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https://universe-review.ca/I13-17-Musicalns00.jpg
I've always equated 'slam' to 'punch', which this ~supports: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...2ce3f25beff3790f549e55b27ff4c29281720a3ec7e35
GM
I've always equated 'slam' to 'punch', which this ~supports: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/...2ce3f25beff3790f549e55b27ff4c29281720a3ec7e35
GM
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I think "hit", "slam", and "punch" are probably largely the same thing as well.
My xo point has to be the same for both the 18" PA460 and the 12" Fane, so it's going to take some trial and error to see what sounds good. The 18" sounded oddly muddy/distorted up above about 150 hz, but possibly this is just because of the missing mid/highs, or in the case of me trying to use the tv speakers as mid/highs perhaps some delay effect since the tv is decoding the hdmi signal separately - not ideal, and obviously this was just jury rigged at the time to try and get a better feel for how the 18 would sound along with the FR drivers.
Norman, you had said previously you liked 750 hz better? I don't think this 18 is going to be clear that high, but we'll see once I add the Fanes.
Thinking about it today, and it sounding good at low volume vs sounding crummy when cranked up - I think this is probably my box resonating since there's no internal bracing yet. So I'm turning 5 sides of the box into additional transducers, each with their own resonant frequency... an effect which would grow the more energy being put into the driver. I need bracing.
I need to see what effect that 20hz high pass has, see if that helps with excessive excursion - it should. Maybe go higher if that's not enough. Come to think of it, I think the XO has a 25hz filter I could try, forgot it had that feature.
Family in town this week/weekend and part of next, so likely no progress til next weekend sometime, unfortunately.
Did I mention this 9.85 cf box is big? and heavy? It's a tough thing to move around single handed, even on a dolly. Stairs are not fun. Ha!
My xo point has to be the same for both the 18" PA460 and the 12" Fane, so it's going to take some trial and error to see what sounds good. The 18" sounded oddly muddy/distorted up above about 150 hz, but possibly this is just because of the missing mid/highs, or in the case of me trying to use the tv speakers as mid/highs perhaps some delay effect since the tv is decoding the hdmi signal separately - not ideal, and obviously this was just jury rigged at the time to try and get a better feel for how the 18 would sound along with the FR drivers.
Norman, you had said previously you liked 750 hz better? I don't think this 18 is going to be clear that high, but we'll see once I add the Fanes.
Thinking about it today, and it sounding good at low volume vs sounding crummy when cranked up - I think this is probably my box resonating since there's no internal bracing yet. So I'm turning 5 sides of the box into additional transducers, each with their own resonant frequency... an effect which would grow the more energy being put into the driver. I need bracing.
I need to see what effect that 20hz high pass has, see if that helps with excessive excursion - it should. Maybe go higher if that's not enough. Come to think of it, I think the XO has a 25hz filter I could try, forgot it had that feature.
Family in town this week/weekend and part of next, so likely no progress til next weekend sometime, unfortunately.
Did I mention this 9.85 cf box is big? and heavy? It's a tough thing to move around single handed, even on a dolly. Stairs are not fun. Ha!
-not sure what the 20Hz high pass would do - that would help in a turntable system where the RIAA curve boost is picking up record warp, rumble, and tonearm shakes from footsteps.
according to hornresp and depending upon tuning, max excursion occurs around 45Hz. (see the last two graphs with lossy inductance model) I can make a little K with a 12 which in theory has more "hit" on the tom fundamental and harmonics than the 18 BR - but it will have no low bass. Such a toy might have use including outdoors. As the little K is moved from 1pi to 2pi to 4pi, its low end will drop, but the upper cavity peak around 210Hz may remain similar. so eq may be in order. In 1pi it may sound out of balance with the mids. I have an old B102 10" in a funky "Pioneer" K12 - drums sound real with no perceptible cone movement.
There's always tradeoffs.
the first four panels are the little K kluge sim
according to hornresp and depending upon tuning, max excursion occurs around 45Hz. (see the last two graphs with lossy inductance model) I can make a little K with a 12 which in theory has more "hit" on the tom fundamental and harmonics than the 18 BR - but it will have no low bass. Such a toy might have use including outdoors. As the little K is moved from 1pi to 2pi to 4pi, its low end will drop, but the upper cavity peak around 210Hz may remain similar. so eq may be in order. In 1pi it may sound out of balance with the mids. I have an old B102 10" in a funky "Pioneer" K12 - drums sound real with no perceptible cone movement.
There's always tradeoffs.
the first four panels are the little K kluge sim
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Hey Freddy, even the 20hz filter moves the freq and excursion curves considerably.. I chose the lowest filter that brought the excursion curve in line with what I was comfortable with - I think it was within or nearly within xmax @ 80w down to 25 hz, and within xlim down to 0 hz. I still need to try the filter though. My little demo test was pretty time limited, so I did what I could.
I was originally trying for a flattish response since I wasn't sure yet what frequencies I'd want to maybe boost a little for more hit.. With the K type box I was worried with the bandpass type response I'd be fighting that peak to try and get it flattened out first. I don't know, maybe it's not such a big deal... Not knowing exactly where the "punch" I was looking for was located frequency wise, I was trying to keep my options open.
Thanks!
I was originally trying for a flattish response since I wasn't sure yet what frequencies I'd want to maybe boost a little for more hit.. With the K type box I was worried with the bandpass type response I'd be fighting that peak to try and get it flattened out first. I don't know, maybe it's not such a big deal... Not knowing exactly where the "punch" I was looking for was located frequency wise, I was trying to keep my options open.
Thanks!
K15 doesn't have the cavity peak like some little K (the traditional K generally gets rougher below K12 size) - its not a subwoofer - but its response and power lives where the bass lives. I have a ton (literally) of horns, etc. and K15 my fave for "bass" in popular music including rap. Its not deep enough for the best organ reproduction unless re-tuned and boosted. Steve Schell likes K15 t0o and he makes a $50,000 or more speaker.
I rattle on about the damn K15 and ilk as imo they deserve preservation.
I rattle on about the damn K15 and ilk as imo they deserve preservation.
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