speaking of "W-bins", wonder if my upcoming baby Belle would exhibit any hit and if so, how much/large of helper woofer would it take to perceive?
sim at 1 watt 1pi - cabinet about 4.5 cubic foot external bulk. Rear chamber 9 to 10 liter (blocked down with foam) https://i.imgur.com/BJ9Ppat.jpg
my Peavey FH1 outdoors response http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/data/2379354/4/4c/4ca8a220_fh1peavey.jpeg
4.5 CF puts the scaled Belle right at the bulk of Karlson's X15 and Acoustic's 115BK.
(I have Peavey FH1 and prefer a K12 - K12 with decent motor strength, and maybe a tapped pipe sub should have some "impact" for a small system - I would use 200w/side with K12 and Kappa12a - K are not appropriate for flea watt amps)
do BP4 with their typically << Sd area vents, exhibit "slam" ?
sim at 1 watt 1pi - cabinet about 4.5 cubic foot external bulk. Rear chamber 9 to 10 liter (blocked down with foam) https://i.imgur.com/BJ9Ppat.jpg
my Peavey FH1 outdoors response http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/data/2379354/4/4c/4ca8a220_fh1peavey.jpeg
4.5 CF puts the scaled Belle right at the bulk of Karlson's X15 and Acoustic's 115BK.
(I have Peavey FH1 and prefer a K12 - K12 with decent motor strength, and maybe a tapped pipe sub should have some "impact" for a small system - I would use 200w/side with K12 and Kappa12a - K are not appropriate for flea watt amps)
do BP4 with their typically << Sd area vents, exhibit "slam" ?
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I think djk's ppsl 12pe lascala would be where i'did be know if it wern'the for my lower volume / 6db crossover / time alignment place I seem to have settled into.
2 of those under my 2384 horn plus 4x12 subs would be Awesome !!!
Tapped horns are big, i'do rather have 2 4th order boxes and not deal with the phase peak junk or limited bandwidth.
Babby belle, nice depth for house (18" seems best for me).
Couldn't tell you.
2 of those under my 2384 horn plus 4x12 subs would be Awesome !!!
Tapped horns are big, i'do rather have 2 4th order boxes and not deal with the phase peak junk or limited bandwidth.
Babby belle, nice depth for house (18" seems best for me).
Couldn't tell you.
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baby Belle made of 5/8" BB will be about 15 inches deep by 25" wide by 20" tall. Is DJK's proposed PPSL LS with 2-12pe32 roughly the same size as PWK's LS? - what was the tuning?
with enough power, 4XB102 per side would not be too shabby for the midbass part.
4 - 10" like Delta 10a in ~ K15 would kick like a mule - I have one Delta10a in a "K10" and its got more subjective punch than some big DR.
4-10 in a K would look roughly like so -thermal compression
probably ok at 500 watts input as Delta 10A have 2.5" coil
http://oi55.tinypic.com/2cfrvap.jpg
my limited experience with horns - sends me back to Karlson
- assuming enough power as K are only around 100dB sensitive.
K are competitive spl wise with FLH only in the hit octave.
depending upon driver , a negative taper tapped pipe would not be too large (about vented box size for similar cutoff) - would the phase mess be fixed well enough with the driver "moved down" the line ?
for a helper woofer, the 6th order reflex with underdamped 2nd order highpass still looks most sensible. I want something tall and slim as there's no floor space after decades of collecting.
007's PA460 cabinet looks really stiff now !
with enough power, 4XB102 per side would not be too shabby for the midbass part.
4 - 10" like Delta 10a in ~ K15 would kick like a mule - I have one Delta10a in a "K10" and its got more subjective punch than some big DR.
4-10 in a K would look roughly like so -thermal compression
probably ok at 500 watts input as Delta 10A have 2.5" coil
http://oi55.tinypic.com/2cfrvap.jpg
my limited experience with horns - sends me back to Karlson
- assuming enough power as K are only around 100dB sensitive.
K are competitive spl wise with FLH only in the hit octave.
depending upon driver , a negative taper tapped pipe would not be too large (about vented box size for similar cutoff) - would the phase mess be fixed well enough with the driver "moved down" the line ?
for a helper woofer, the 6th order reflex with underdamped 2nd order highpass still looks most sensible. I want something tall and slim as there's no floor space after decades of collecting.
007's PA460 cabinet looks really stiff now !
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4x12 direct radiator, if enough power, would not be bad for midbass. Pa310 looks awfully good in a Heresy sized vented box - maybe two could be used for a small system - even up pretty high (?) 2 PA310-8 in parallel might be hard to drive with some amplifiers.
https://i.imgur.com/Gns9kch.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Gns9kch.jpg
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Thanks fellas,
I'm still hoping to get some punch out of these 18"s... We'll see!
Almost ready to reassemble and bring the first cabinet back in the house for a listen. Installing the damping insulation today/tomorrow, then just need to put it all back together and move it from the garage back into house (not a trivial exercise).
I think I'm going to still try a sealed box too with the same PA460 driver. Low end response will be lacking, but if you guys are right about that being the source of the boom it might sound better for music anyhow - most of it anyway. I came up with a target of 4 cf for that, looks like 5 cf - bracing & driver puts it right about at 4 ft3. Now to just find some time to build it...!
Jesse
Edit:
The bi-amped receiver setup is working out pretty well so far.. certainly not lacking for volume potential with my existing speakers, and sound is much improved. So much improved in fact, that if I had done this first, I might not have bothered building my own speakers - ha! That's the old fishers on the bottom for lows, and some yamaha bookshelf speakers up top for mids/highs, crossing over around 140 hz with all the original passive crossovers still in place...
I'm still hoping to get some punch out of these 18"s... We'll see!
Almost ready to reassemble and bring the first cabinet back in the house for a listen. Installing the damping insulation today/tomorrow, then just need to put it all back together and move it from the garage back into house (not a trivial exercise).
I think I'm going to still try a sealed box too with the same PA460 driver. Low end response will be lacking, but if you guys are right about that being the source of the boom it might sound better for music anyhow - most of it anyway. I came up with a target of 4 cf for that, looks like 5 cf - bracing & driver puts it right about at 4 ft3. Now to just find some time to build it...!
Jesse
Edit:
The bi-amped receiver setup is working out pretty well so far.. certainly not lacking for volume potential with my existing speakers, and sound is much improved. So much improved in fact, that if I had done this first, I might not have bothered building my own speakers - ha! That's the old fishers on the bottom for lows, and some yamaha bookshelf speakers up top for mids/highs, crossing over around 140 hz with all the original passive crossovers still in place...
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I like percussion and don't like to see a cone move so like K. It takes about an 8 cubic foot external bulk enclosure for a "K18" (I have gone as low as 6CF bulk with 18") - LF cutoff is relatively high but not missed with a lot of material due to punch. My FLH midbass include - custom RCA-Fan 12" driver, baby University Classic (10"), Ray Newman's Sentry IV (2X12"), Peavey FH1 (15"), an upcoming baby Belle. K15 with a competent 15 coax is as enjoyable or moreso than any of those. My next K may be K12. I have like 4 pairs with slit vents but want a pair with less lossy vent. I harp on the things as they seem to work pretty well.
Well, after a thick coat of oil based paint... the OSB is now grainier and more splintery than ever - frustratingly so. May need to actually sand the damn thing and repaint it just so it's safe to bring in the house with the kids liable to touch it every chance they get.
Denim insulation going in well at least, it's nice to work with and cuts with a razor blade. Cut to fit between braces, hold in place, then staple in place. Using some thin cardboard scraps as "washers" so the staples don't pull thru. I'll post a picture when i'm further along.
Denim insulation going in well at least, it's nice to work with and cuts with a razor blade. Cut to fit between braces, hold in place, then staple in place. Using some thin cardboard scraps as "washers" so the staples don't pull thru. I'll post a picture when i'm further along.
I had luck yesterday running my double 15's wide open with my 2 way wide open, definitely an improvement to the thunky bass noticable a room away even. Lowered bass tone control to 0 also compared to +4. Ideally you can eq it just right, but set 15s back to 100hz rolloff due to the 15s being 6' from the speaker under the tv.
And the subs are wired parallel 4ohm around 101db (8ohm each for 95db).
Works well, not needing bass boost for our lower listening levels.
I wouldn't have thought it would work well being 9db more sensivity and in the corner.........
And the subs are wired parallel 4ohm around 101db (8ohm each for 95db).
Works well, not needing bass boost for our lower listening levels.
I wouldn't have thought it would work well being 9db more sensivity and in the corner.........
Update:
Added damping, cabinet fairly well braced, all reassembled and brought back into the living room, and...
Its a different animal altogether now. Does not seem boomy, does not resonate, no "one note" subwoofer type bass anymore.. thank goodness. I wouldn't say its particularly tight or punchy, but at least the boom boom is gone! Seems to subjectively have good reach down low, but haven't done any frequency sweeps yet or anything. Sounds ok with the xo turned up all the way to 700hz or so, but I seem to favor 140-200 hz. Interesting is that cone excursion is now way less - the cab seems to be loading the woofer much more effectively now.
I suspect it was mostly the cabinet flexing and producing sound from the sides/back/top panels that made it boomy prior.. but theres no telling how much the damping insulation helped as well, as i didn't try running it with just one or the other.
It certainly does dominate the room in terms of appearance. Sound is impressive compared to my old fisher woofers, but perhaps not as impressive as one would expect given the sheer size of the woofer and cabinet.
Jesse
Added damping, cabinet fairly well braced, all reassembled and brought back into the living room, and...
Its a different animal altogether now. Does not seem boomy, does not resonate, no "one note" subwoofer type bass anymore.. thank goodness. I wouldn't say its particularly tight or punchy, but at least the boom boom is gone! Seems to subjectively have good reach down low, but haven't done any frequency sweeps yet or anything. Sounds ok with the xo turned up all the way to 700hz or so, but I seem to favor 140-200 hz. Interesting is that cone excursion is now way less - the cab seems to be loading the woofer much more effectively now.
I suspect it was mostly the cabinet flexing and producing sound from the sides/back/top panels that made it boomy prior.. but theres no telling how much the damping insulation helped as well, as i didn't try running it with just one or the other.
It certainly does dominate the room in terms of appearance. Sound is impressive compared to my old fisher woofers, but perhaps not as impressive as one would expect given the sheer size of the woofer and cabinet.
Jesse
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Thanks Mr. Bates, I need to get those Fanes in cabs soon, just need to find the time... I'm not sure I followed your above post, you moved your dual 15s to the corner and the bass got better, not more boomy?
As you can see in my last picture, theres a doorway to either side of myy stereo setup, so LF bass reinforcement is probably even less than just up against a wall.
I think I will still try the other 18 in a sealed box for giggles.
As you can see in my last picture, theres a doorway to either side of myy stereo setup, so LF bass reinforcement is probably even less than just up against a wall.
I think I will still try the other 18 in a sealed box for giggles.
Eh, plugged ports to my 15's. Sealed went less low, didn't seem faster, at all.
100hz crossover can have 10ms or more delay, thats 10' in time.
Thats why people have luck with a coffee table sub at listening position and speakers 10' away.
I just moved the speaker wire that goes to the subs, just piggy backed it with my current speaker then mucked with eq to make it sound right.
Now i have my push pull subs where the 15's were.
Speaker under tv run wide open.
Receiver rolling off sub at 100hz (no clue how steeply), seems leaner deeper and cleaner than 15" direct radiators.
100hz crossover can have 10ms or more delay, thats 10' in time.
Thats why people have luck with a coffee table sub at listening position and speakers 10' away.
I just moved the speaker wire that goes to the subs, just piggy backed it with my current speaker then mucked with eq to make it sound right.
Now i have my push pull subs where the 15's were.
Speaker under tv run wide open.
Receiver rolling off sub at 100hz (no clue how steeply), seems leaner deeper and cleaner than 15" direct radiators.
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Played around a bit more the other night with just the one new 18 cabinet running on one channel, an old fisher 12" 3way on the other and I'm still surprised how much the character of this thing has changed.
It's much more "modest" now, the cone doesn't move a whole lot at any reasonable level with eq settings flat. It's not overwhelming at all, which is sort of good anyway, but still rather surprising considering. It still doesn't seem to have a whole lot of "punch" given the sheer size of the thing, but it is an improvement (running alone) over the 12" fishers both running (thank goodness, I'm setting the bar fairly low here). It may fill out a lot more with the two 18s both up and running, perhaps more than the 3db you'd expect?
It will move and punch pretty good if you kick it hard enough, like crank up the bass knob, push the extended bass button, and crank up the lower bands on the EQ... but then of course it's quite overwhelming on things other than kickdrums. Bass guitar and kick drums seem to be at odds with each other.
It's much more "modest" now, the cone doesn't move a whole lot at any reasonable level with eq settings flat. It's not overwhelming at all, which is sort of good anyway, but still rather surprising considering. It still doesn't seem to have a whole lot of "punch" given the sheer size of the thing, but it is an improvement (running alone) over the 12" fishers both running (thank goodness, I'm setting the bar fairly low here). It may fill out a lot more with the two 18s both up and running, perhaps more than the 3db you'd expect?
It will move and punch pretty good if you kick it hard enough, like crank up the bass knob, push the extended bass button, and crank up the lower bands on the EQ... but then of course it's quite overwhelming on things other than kickdrums. Bass guitar and kick drums seem to be at odds with each other.
hey GM - re: reported boominess, here's my sim from above on the 460BR - did I do something wrong on the input side ? it has no damping material.
Greets!
A 500 W RMS driver limited to 250 W max isn't going to alter its response much, if any like HR predicts with a lossy Le unless run continuously until it overheats to a much higher Qt like in a PA app, plus need to use the Acoustical Power Maximum SPL tool to show where it runs out of Xmax or whatever overdrive limit one chooses.
GM
Assuming its specs are fairly accurate, something's not right based on a HR sim; it should have plenty of 'punch' even at low volume unless XO'd low [< 100-150 Hz depending on slope], has a leak and/or a lot of room boundary gain to boost the low end 'flat' to underdamped in room.
With > 115 dB peak/m/2 pi/250 W capability, this is normally more than most folks prefer, so up against a wall and especially in a corner, one should 'drown out' the combined Fishers down below ~ 400 Hz.
3 dB if in stereo, 6 dB if paralleled and fed via a single channel.
At odds how? I mean a bass guitar's and kick drum's 'boom'/'punch' overlap with the latter going down a bit lower.
GM
it should have some sense of power - maybe better with classical and theater organ than pop (? - this old sim may be tuned lower than 007's cabinet) https://i.imgur.com/sCSzUVA.jpg
I remember using two 6.4CF R-J with Eminence 18 topped with 2-8" per side (MTM) and a horn and sounding decent biamped at 100 with DBX to pump the dynamics
which songs - albums have the best examples of kick drums and bass work? has it changed from 50 years ago? Round wound bass strings showed up in the 1960's (eating frets and adding ugly harmonics to rattle out of W-bins) some kick drums are tuned higher later on than the floor tom. My fave bass was a Fender Telecaster with single coil pickup but I got drunk and de-fretted it - was still good but not as pretty looking.
I remember using two 6.4CF R-J with Eminence 18 topped with 2-8" per side (MTM) and a horn and sounding decent biamped at 100 with DBX to pump the dynamics
which songs - albums have the best examples of kick drums and bass work? has it changed from 50 years ago? Round wound bass strings showed up in the 1960's (eating frets and adding ugly harmonics to rattle out of W-bins) some kick drums are tuned higher later on than the floor tom. My fave bass was a Fender Telecaster with single coil pickup but I got drunk and de-fretted it - was still good but not as pretty looking.
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The latest from Radiohead ( A Moon Shaped Pool ) contains many subfrequencies that my speakers with 6 1/2" mid-woofer can't reproduce. They move, the membranes, but no sound is perceived.
You cannot really determine if the sub-bass information is manipulated ( not random...) because modern vynils have a digital master!
You cannot really determine if the sub-bass information is manipulated ( not random...) because modern vynils have a digital master!
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