I've never heard of Radiohead before - nice album - rather thick and atmospheric mix - live version of "Decks Dark" done well versus what I heard from the CD mp3 samples. The content may not be really deep but the the electric bass is incisive. YouTube
a couple of K15 should hold it down but I don't have space to hook up mine for all the collection of horn, etc.
a couple of K15 should hold it down but I don't have space to hook up mine for all the collection of horn, etc.
Hi GM,
It may be that my expectations are just set a bit high, there certainly is some punch, and more than the fishers indeed - just maybe not what one would expect looking at the size of it. I do have it crossed at 140-200ish hz, I had played around with crossing it higher but didn't notice much more punch and the sound started to get a bit funky. Was trying to keep the vocals up on the mid/high biamp channel, hence the relatively low xo point. No leaks in the cabinet that I've found yet.
I'm not sure how much room gain I'm getting, they are in an odd position - up against the wall, but the wall ends just to the left and right of each respective speaker as they are on the central wall in my home and there is a doorway to the left and right of the system (you can just see the doorways in the last picture a few posts ago), so there may not be as much reinforcement there as you'd think since much of it is lost thru the doorway.
Also, they aren't getting 250w or even 150w, as they are just being run off one of my receivers - so 100w rms in stereo is the rated power. I only have the one cabinet built thus far, so I'm only playing with one channels worth of 18", since it's just the old fisher still on the right channel.
Bass guitar and kick drum at odds in the sense that I want to feel the punch of the kick drums, but if things are cranked up enough for that, even if its a peak in the response in that part of the spectrum, then listening to something with bass guitar will get overpowering and weird when it's played. Or such has been my experience anyway
thanks,
Jesse
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One other thing is that I'm just using a set of 3 way bookshelf speakers for the mid/high channel, so the part of the "punch" above 140-200hz is probably not well represented yet (at least in comparison to the 18" woofer). This should improve once I get the Fane 12" full range cabinets done and assembled...
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Hey Freddy,
I was actually listening to some classical stuff last night at very low volume, but with the bass boost on and EQ knobs cranked up on the low end (which I've found to be pretty overwhelming with pop/rock cranked up), and it sounded great.
I need to sort out the equalizer yet, it's an older analog unit with a spectrum analyzer that was just too cool to pass up... But when it's engaged, the background hiss becomes much louder. I need to try grounding it to the receivers to see if that reduces it, or if that's just what you get adding more junk into the signal path.
I knew I'd need "music mode" and "movie mode" settings to change/fiddle with when going from one to the other, but I was hoping to not have to fiddle with everything once I have it set, IE find a combination of settings that sounds good for everything... does such a thing even exist? I've already started eyeing up the behringer dcx2496 to replace my (brand new) 2 way crossover with and to do digital eq, time delay, etc with...
Pico, thanks I will check that album out later. I've not listened to them in a while... The newest song from Muse, think it's called "dig down" has a fair bit of low low stuff as well, sounds pretty killer on the ported 18"
Jesse
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Some progress... but slow. This is the sealed box for the PA460 18" driver, 5cf ideal, closer to 4 cf in actuality with bracing.
I'm continuing to listen to and enjoy the other PA460 driver in it's monstrous 9.8 cf ported box, and it does seem to do well with most genres of music - classical, rock, pop, electronic, jazz. It does have good punch when the music is punchy, and the volume is up. If the music is boomy, then things can get exceptionally boomy. And it reaches low enough that the newer electronic stuff sounds great - I was just listening to the new Tron soundtrack by Daft Punk the other day and it's got some lowww stuff in it. >For reference, I've been mostly leaving the bass/treble knobs and EQ flat.
I'm very curious to see how the same driver behaves in a sealed box - obviously the f3 will be much higher (66 vs 34 hz, ~38 hz w/ subsonic filter), but perhaps with a more gradual rolloff at the low end it will be more impressive than one might assume looking at just a graph. I guess I'll see soon enough, just need to get the driver mounted and debating any additional bracing inside.
Jesse
I'm continuing to listen to and enjoy the other PA460 driver in it's monstrous 9.8 cf ported box, and it does seem to do well with most genres of music - classical, rock, pop, electronic, jazz. It does have good punch when the music is punchy, and the volume is up. If the music is boomy, then things can get exceptionally boomy. And it reaches low enough that the newer electronic stuff sounds great - I was just listening to the new Tron soundtrack by Daft Punk the other day and it's got some lowww stuff in it. >For reference, I've been mostly leaving the bass/treble knobs and EQ flat.
I'm very curious to see how the same driver behaves in a sealed box - obviously the f3 will be much higher (66 vs 34 hz, ~38 hz w/ subsonic filter), but perhaps with a more gradual rolloff at the low end it will be more impressive than one might assume looking at just a graph. I guess I'll see soon enough, just need to get the driver mounted and debating any additional bracing inside.
Jesse
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Hi, I can't remember, have to looked into "Linkwitz transform", whereby a driver is put in a small sealed box to raise the resonance and then EQ'd below? It is a way of having a lot of control over it's behaviour at low frequencies or even this Sub-Woofer Controller which takes the idea to an even simpler conclusion
Hey Scott, no had not looked into or intended going that route... but pretty neat. Like a Bag End sub. I was hoping the in-room boost would make up for the 12db rolloff, and was hoping for less "boom" at the same time.
Just need to find some time to finish it!
I might pursue something like that for my sub... I was planning on a big folded horn subwoofer like the f20 or lilwrecker. Thanks for the link, thats an interesting site!
Just need to find some time to finish it!
I might pursue something like that for my sub... I was planning on a big folded horn subwoofer like the f20 or lilwrecker. Thanks for the link, thats an interesting site!
Initial impressions of the PA460 in the sealed box are mostly good. There's certainly a big difference between how it sounds in the 4 cf sealed box vs the 9 cf ported box, but it's not quite as big a difference as I had expected based on the sim graphs. It still goes down pretty low and has reasonable output down to maybe 30 hz (just playing around, no measurements), where the ported box has reasonable output all the way down to about 17 hz (again, just playing around). The ported box does indeed make more noise/w, and it keeps up better with my Fane 12" full range highs running at a similar wattage (the highs are dialed back and lows dialed up on the active xo).
Where things get interesting is if I engage the equalizer, and bump u[p the 30/60 hz bands to compensate for the natural rolloff. Then it seems to have as much subjective "punch" as the ported box, though there is more cone travel since it's a less efficient arrangement. It also still managed to produce some low frequency rumble (the f3 of the sealed box simmed at 66 hz), but again I think the cone was probably really moving.
Also interesting is that there is a noticeable difference in how that "punch" feels between the two. The ported box has a "punch" that's a heavy thud, but I've wondered since building it if that was just because of the larger moving mass of the 18 driver, or caused by the ported box.
It seems to be the ported box;
The sealed box has a "punch" that is more like a quick jab, and doesn't sound like the driver is that heavy - it could be a 15 or a 12 if you were blindfolded. It's much more musical in that sense (for traditional music at least - heavy electronic stuff sounds better with the lower reach that the ported box provides). A good test track I found out about reading elsewhere that has very tight punchy bass (and is a good tune as well!) is:
Diggin on James Brown - Tower of Power
So between the ported and sealed variants, I suspect they'd be best biased for movies/music, respectively. Though, as I said it might be a toss up for heavy electronic music that has a lot of very low bass content:
Cymatics - Nigel Stanford (and also Solar Echoes and Automatica albums)
Drink the Sea (album) - Glitch Mob
One more things - I may have finally experienced "cone cry" or breakup myself on the sealed box PA460. With the EQ on and turned up a bit hotter in the 30/60 hz bands, testing with a frequency sweep app on my phone (ToneGen - nicest one I've found thus far), and operating subsonic - maybe it was 17 hz - when I turned up the volume enough I got a secondary noise that was higher in pitch and was certainly audible. I guess it's possible I was clipping the amplifier as well..? Anyway, the EQ was set differently for ported and sealed, so the conditions were not the same. I'll have to try the ported box under the same conditions and see if it makes that noise or not. It may just be that I've not needed (or wanted) to push the driver that hard in the ported box, as there is a lot of sound and things in the house are rattling around a good bit... where in the sealed box, there is less sound for a given input, and it's easier to crank up the dial before it gets overwhelming. I've not noticed it making the noise while listening to music - seems that 17 hz with EQ lows turned up and volume way up might not be a normal operating condition anyhow!
Jesse
Where things get interesting is if I engage the equalizer, and bump u[p the 30/60 hz bands to compensate for the natural rolloff. Then it seems to have as much subjective "punch" as the ported box, though there is more cone travel since it's a less efficient arrangement. It also still managed to produce some low frequency rumble (the f3 of the sealed box simmed at 66 hz), but again I think the cone was probably really moving.
Also interesting is that there is a noticeable difference in how that "punch" feels between the two. The ported box has a "punch" that's a heavy thud, but I've wondered since building it if that was just because of the larger moving mass of the 18 driver, or caused by the ported box.
It seems to be the ported box;
The sealed box has a "punch" that is more like a quick jab, and doesn't sound like the driver is that heavy - it could be a 15 or a 12 if you were blindfolded. It's much more musical in that sense (for traditional music at least - heavy electronic stuff sounds better with the lower reach that the ported box provides). A good test track I found out about reading elsewhere that has very tight punchy bass (and is a good tune as well!) is:
Diggin on James Brown - Tower of Power
So between the ported and sealed variants, I suspect they'd be best biased for movies/music, respectively. Though, as I said it might be a toss up for heavy electronic music that has a lot of very low bass content:
Cymatics - Nigel Stanford (and also Solar Echoes and Automatica albums)
Drink the Sea (album) - Glitch Mob
One more things - I may have finally experienced "cone cry" or breakup myself on the sealed box PA460. With the EQ on and turned up a bit hotter in the 30/60 hz bands, testing with a frequency sweep app on my phone (ToneGen - nicest one I've found thus far), and operating subsonic - maybe it was 17 hz - when I turned up the volume enough I got a secondary noise that was higher in pitch and was certainly audible. I guess it's possible I was clipping the amplifier as well..? Anyway, the EQ was set differently for ported and sealed, so the conditions were not the same. I'll have to try the ported box under the same conditions and see if it makes that noise or not. It may just be that I've not needed (or wanted) to push the driver that hard in the ported box, as there is a lot of sound and things in the house are rattling around a good bit... where in the sealed box, there is less sound for a given input, and it's easier to crank up the dial before it gets overwhelming. I've not noticed it making the noise while listening to music - seems that 17 hz with EQ lows turned up and volume way up might not be a normal operating condition anyhow!
Jesse
It's worth mentioning that this setup is intended for dual use, music/movies, but that I was also intending on adding a large subwoofer next for movie LFE business.
The PA460 in that ported box, is, in effect, a subwoofer more than a woofer.
Which do I like better? Ha! If only it were that easy... Traditional music, I think I prefer the sealed box. Deep organ recordings, I prefer the ported box. Electronic music, I prefer the ported box. The size of the sealed box is certainly more manageable... I can even pick that one up myself if I have to; the ported box, no way jose.
The PA460 in that ported box, is, in effect, a subwoofer more than a woofer.
Which do I like better? Ha! If only it were that easy... Traditional music, I think I prefer the sealed box. Deep organ recordings, I prefer the ported box. Electronic music, I prefer the ported box. The size of the sealed box is certainly more manageable... I can even pick that one up myself if I have to; the ported box, no way jose.
Good for you !!!! I like the looks of the stain on the sealed box - what is it ?
U could run a transform - I've a Leach transform but its set to correct ~3dB peaking at 50 and none of my toys have that peak ( the little ported K's are dead by that point - lol) . I have used the transform type with ported with no problem on CDs (might be one with turntable rumble) Also have a little Reckhorn EQ box - it can do lots of curves - too bad not sold anymore.
would conversion of your sealed box to aperiodic hole vented have any impact on its sound quality ? - or only input impedance ?
how would your sealed box sound with a 450uF series cap? - the woofer would more more - calculated group delay = higher.
sorry for typos - (vision doesn't converge plus lousy typist)
U could run a transform - I've a Leach transform but its set to correct ~3dB peaking at 50 and none of my toys have that peak ( the little ported K's are dead by that point - lol) . I have used the transform type with ported with no problem on CDs (might be one with turntable rumble) Also have a little Reckhorn EQ box - it can do lots of curves - too bad not sold anymore.
would conversion of your sealed box to aperiodic hole vented have any impact on its sound quality ? - or only input impedance ?
how would your sealed box sound with a 450uF series cap? - the woofer would more more - calculated group delay = higher.
sorry for typos - (vision doesn't converge plus lousy typist)
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Thanks Freddy - That box is just bare plywood at the moment... it does have a nice weathered look to it. Original plan was to get nice birch ply and stain it something like a warm brown, and these prototype boxes were just going to be black. Time allowing, of course...
I may yet do something more with eq, im actually still contemplating that DCX2496 digital eq/delay box.
Re: converting to aperiodic and adding cap... I wonder if you'd start hearing port noises on something this big.. or you'd just need a lot of holes.. not sure, but the 18 moves a lot of air, even with its relatively small xmax. And in the 4cf box, its a flat alignment, q=.707 so I'm not sure what you'd gain except being able to use a smaller box? And i don't know about adding the cap... graph looks like more under the curve, but you never get something for nothing, so we must be giving up something doing that...
Also your graphs look a bit different than my sims in winisd again.. at some point i want to measure the response and see what its really doing...
Sounds pretty good as is, really.. But that's not to say there isn't room for improvement. I'm still getting a feel for it, listening to some jazz at the moment
I may yet do something more with eq, im actually still contemplating that DCX2496 digital eq/delay box.
Re: converting to aperiodic and adding cap... I wonder if you'd start hearing port noises on something this big.. or you'd just need a lot of holes.. not sure, but the 18 moves a lot of air, even with its relatively small xmax. And in the 4cf box, its a flat alignment, q=.707 so I'm not sure what you'd gain except being able to use a smaller box? And i don't know about adding the cap... graph looks like more under the curve, but you never get something for nothing, so we must be giving up something doing that...
Also your graphs look a bit different than my sims in winisd again.. at some point i want to measure the response and see what its really doing...
Sounds pretty good as is, really.. But that's not to say there isn't room for improvement. I'm still getting a feel for it, listening to some jazz at the moment
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I recently bought one. Very handy for experimenting with xover etc for a technophobe like me
Audio Concepts drilled a few holes for their "aperiodic" cabinets
then covered them with foam. I never measured the Z of mine
in the day so don't know the effect. They would barely wheeze
with sine input.
The cap mod would work with a stock sealed cabinet.
The main price besides that of a decent capacitor is more excursion
to get the gain (from the impedance peak around/below resonance being lowered).
The amp must be a constant voltage source type.
(low feedback tube amp would not work as have too high source Z)
the cap, if not lossy, will extend the lows.
That's at a cost of higher group delay and more cone excursion.
(look at the plots below)
I sometimes think of the time when I turned off my
Citation I tube preamp "before" the Citation 12 power amp 40 years ago.
The DC pulse destroyed 4 -10" SEAS woofers.
then covered them with foam. I never measured the Z of mine
in the day so don't know the effect. They would barely wheeze
with sine input.
The cap mod would work with a stock sealed cabinet.
The main price besides that of a decent capacitor is more excursion
to get the gain (from the impedance peak around/below resonance being lowered).
The amp must be a constant voltage source type.
(low feedback tube amp would not work as have too high source Z)
the cap, if not lossy, will extend the lows.
That's at a cost of higher group delay and more cone excursion.
(look at the plots below)
I sometimes think of the time when I turned off my
Citation I tube preamp "before" the Citation 12 power amp 40 years ago.
The DC pulse destroyed 4 -10" SEAS woofers.
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Well I was able to get that funny noise out of both woofers, if driven hard enough. I had a high pass of 25 hz ob the ported box prior, and the noise was more prevalent with it off. I think I'm just driving the VC out of the magnets, past Xmax. So its just whatever that type of distortion is called...
So I'm apparently just out of Xmax... I guess that makes sense, they aren't high excursion drivers (6mm xmax). So likely what they really need, if i want to drive them that hard, is a higher subsonic filter. Currently a 25hz 12 db filter on my active xo. I guess having an adjustable high pass would be a nice benefit of that dcx2496. I'd still like these woofers to reach down to ar least 40 hz, ideally lower. I'll have to play around more with test tones and see if i can find the frequencies where they level off...
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