Thanks guys for all your replies. My question was a genuine one and I wasn't trolling. Have a look at my posting here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133639 and it will give you some idea of my genuine interest in hi-fi.
I was on the verge of buying a couple of full range drivers and I'm glad that I asked this question here first before I did so. It saved me wasting my money on something which I now know I would not be happy with.
I started making valve hi-fi amplifiers back in the late 50s using EL 84, KT 66 etc and winding my own ultra linear output transforms together with making my own speaker systems.
So I've been the game a long time and I have no desire to go back to what I think some of you guys would call the good-old-days.
Modern electronics are absolutely superb, in my opinion and these new class-d amplifiers like Hypex will blow your mind they are so good.
I think I've got a very good ear, together with years of experience to ascertain what is right and what is just "kidding yourself"/wishful thinking and what you have got used to listening to.
I remember a friend asking me to come and look at his new hi-fi, some years back, which he wasn't happy with. He had called out the engineers but they couldn't find anything wrong with it.
I listened to it and it sounded really good.
I asked him what actually was wrong, he said listen to those trumpets and violins they are so harsh it's grating on my ears.
I quickly turned the treble right down and he said that is so much much better, just perfect, why couldn't the service engineer do that?
I just can't understand how people here can say that valve amplifiers and CDs are the best. Perhaps it's a little bit of the above.
I know how good and what a vast improvement transistor amplifiers were compared with valves and CDs were compared with vinyl.
Huge dynamic range, no surface noise and one could play a CD a thousand times and it would still be the same quality as the first. Vinyl on the other hand is well on its way to being worn out on its first playing.
Don't you think you are all a bit out of step after all, the vast majority of people have voted with their feet and have dumped vinyl and valve amplifiers.
Anyway, I'm not worried as long as I am happy with what I listen to and you are happy with yours. We are all different after all.
It does make me laugh though, there's a guy here advocating painting blobs of paint around his speakers and cabinets to improve the sound. Well, if you believe that you would believe anything.
Also, I remember some time back people were selling special coloured pens to colour the edge of their CDs with different coloured inks. Supposedly, different colours gave a different ambience to the sound. Red to make it sound livelier, yellow smoother etc etc what a load of bull dust.
Nobody has answered my original question which was: why aren't the mainstream speaker manufacturers producing full range speakers if they are that good? With enough convincing arguments to satisfy me.
The only reason people have given is its due to the cost and complexity of these speakers, which doesn't hold much water if you think about it.
Manufacturers could do anything and hype-up anything with lots of technobabble.
Instead of selling these speakers cheaper, they could make them the top-of-the-range and sell them for thousands of dollars each.
Fantastic profit margins there, just a speaker and a box and they work better than the oppositions who are still using crossovers.
I have picked out some of the answers below to why I'm not going down this path-
Quote:
full range does have an "allure," for some types of music (simple, mostly), @ low levels, etc.
like late night, jazz, "girl w/ guitar," etc.
it's nice to have a simple system to enjoy simple music.
but i wouldn't want to limit myself to it being my only system either.
It just doesn't rock out the same, much less present a symphony with dynamics and color @ anything approaching "natural" levels" without clipping, and major distortion.
Answer:
I just want to have one set of speakers that will play all types music, perhaps with some compromises, but nevertheless ones that I could be happy with.
Quote:
I have B&W speakers that i like for loud rock or country music. I have full range open baffles that i like for jazz, acoustic & female vocals. I wouldn't rock out with Robin Trower on my low wattage full range system or listen to David Grisman on my B&W's.
Answer:
Same as above.
Quote:
I'll try to explain e.g. Feastrex cost so much because of field coil drivers, and she'll give this confused look, and say but they're the ones that don't have any dynamics, and fall apart playing symphonies,
Answer:
Even these $70,000 speakers don't have a proper dynamic range. I'd love a full dynamic sound.
Quote:
we love nothing more than to muse rhapsodic over our (current) personal favorite "FR/BW/SD" speaker system and associated "archaic / unconventional" components (analog vinyl or tape, vacuum tube electronics, hand braided silver interconnects, etc, etc, ad naseum)
I can certainly allow for the consideration that my personal appreciation of the system's musicality is in great part a product of the design complexity and blood/sweat/tears invested in its fabrication
Answer:
Well, I agree with what they say here most of the fun that you are getting is building speakers and fiddling around.
I on the other hand have very the time or inclination for this I would rather be just listening to my music.
I was on the verge of buying a couple of full range drivers and I'm glad that I asked this question here first before I did so. It saved me wasting my money on something which I now know I would not be happy with.
I started making valve hi-fi amplifiers back in the late 50s using EL 84, KT 66 etc and winding my own ultra linear output transforms together with making my own speaker systems.
So I've been the game a long time and I have no desire to go back to what I think some of you guys would call the good-old-days.
Modern electronics are absolutely superb, in my opinion and these new class-d amplifiers like Hypex will blow your mind they are so good.
I think I've got a very good ear, together with years of experience to ascertain what is right and what is just "kidding yourself"/wishful thinking and what you have got used to listening to.
I remember a friend asking me to come and look at his new hi-fi, some years back, which he wasn't happy with. He had called out the engineers but they couldn't find anything wrong with it.
I listened to it and it sounded really good.
I asked him what actually was wrong, he said listen to those trumpets and violins they are so harsh it's grating on my ears.
I quickly turned the treble right down and he said that is so much much better, just perfect, why couldn't the service engineer do that?
I just can't understand how people here can say that valve amplifiers and CDs are the best. Perhaps it's a little bit of the above.
I know how good and what a vast improvement transistor amplifiers were compared with valves and CDs were compared with vinyl.
Huge dynamic range, no surface noise and one could play a CD a thousand times and it would still be the same quality as the first. Vinyl on the other hand is well on its way to being worn out on its first playing.
Don't you think you are all a bit out of step after all, the vast majority of people have voted with their feet and have dumped vinyl and valve amplifiers.
Anyway, I'm not worried as long as I am happy with what I listen to and you are happy with yours. We are all different after all.
It does make me laugh though, there's a guy here advocating painting blobs of paint around his speakers and cabinets to improve the sound. Well, if you believe that you would believe anything.
Also, I remember some time back people were selling special coloured pens to colour the edge of their CDs with different coloured inks. Supposedly, different colours gave a different ambience to the sound. Red to make it sound livelier, yellow smoother etc etc what a load of bull dust.
Nobody has answered my original question which was: why aren't the mainstream speaker manufacturers producing full range speakers if they are that good? With enough convincing arguments to satisfy me.
The only reason people have given is its due to the cost and complexity of these speakers, which doesn't hold much water if you think about it.
Manufacturers could do anything and hype-up anything with lots of technobabble.
Instead of selling these speakers cheaper, they could make them the top-of-the-range and sell them for thousands of dollars each.
Fantastic profit margins there, just a speaker and a box and they work better than the oppositions who are still using crossovers.
I have picked out some of the answers below to why I'm not going down this path-
Quote:
full range does have an "allure," for some types of music (simple, mostly), @ low levels, etc.
like late night, jazz, "girl w/ guitar," etc.
it's nice to have a simple system to enjoy simple music.
but i wouldn't want to limit myself to it being my only system either.
It just doesn't rock out the same, much less present a symphony with dynamics and color @ anything approaching "natural" levels" without clipping, and major distortion.
Answer:
I just want to have one set of speakers that will play all types music, perhaps with some compromises, but nevertheless ones that I could be happy with.
Quote:
I have B&W speakers that i like for loud rock or country music. I have full range open baffles that i like for jazz, acoustic & female vocals. I wouldn't rock out with Robin Trower on my low wattage full range system or listen to David Grisman on my B&W's.
Answer:
Same as above.
Quote:
I'll try to explain e.g. Feastrex cost so much because of field coil drivers, and she'll give this confused look, and say but they're the ones that don't have any dynamics, and fall apart playing symphonies,
Answer:
Even these $70,000 speakers don't have a proper dynamic range. I'd love a full dynamic sound.
Quote:
we love nothing more than to muse rhapsodic over our (current) personal favorite "FR/BW/SD" speaker system and associated "archaic / unconventional" components (analog vinyl or tape, vacuum tube electronics, hand braided silver interconnects, etc, etc, ad naseum)
I can certainly allow for the consideration that my personal appreciation of the system's musicality is in great part a product of the design complexity and blood/sweat/tears invested in its fabrication
Answer:
Well, I agree with what they say here most of the fun that you are getting is building speakers and fiddling around.
I on the other hand have very the time or inclination for this I would rather be just listening to my music.
From a semi-ignernt Newbie standpoint I can tell you how I understand the Full-Range concept. Its like a sports car vs. a race car.
1. Full Range is the simplest from source to driver with the least amount of added input along the way. Every component in a system has the potential to add to/color the sound wheather intended or not. Amplifiers amplify any added input so an efficient speaker that requires less amplification is key.
2. They don't shine playing busy "dirty" music like rock and roll with cymbal crashes and all the other hisss and shhh that goes along with it or music with alotta bass. They optimize the midrange where vocals and brass are crystal. Depending on your musical tastes, one set of speakers won't do, neither will a sports car on a racetrack.
3. Compromises are chosen carefully and are located as far out of the midrange as possible. Using FullRange as a base its easy to add what is missing to your ears. Adding a tweeter later but crossing it over higher than 4khz at like say 10khz or higher keeps most of the added input of the network out of the mid up to that point. Same on the sub crossover point. You don't want a crossover network right in the middle of where you listen the most.
My plan is to build a set and decide from there. Starting out with the midrange taken care of really makes things easier.
1. Full Range is the simplest from source to driver with the least amount of added input along the way. Every component in a system has the potential to add to/color the sound wheather intended or not. Amplifiers amplify any added input so an efficient speaker that requires less amplification is key.
2. They don't shine playing busy "dirty" music like rock and roll with cymbal crashes and all the other hisss and shhh that goes along with it or music with alotta bass. They optimize the midrange where vocals and brass are crystal. Depending on your musical tastes, one set of speakers won't do, neither will a sports car on a racetrack.
3. Compromises are chosen carefully and are located as far out of the midrange as possible. Using FullRange as a base its easy to add what is missing to your ears. Adding a tweeter later but crossing it over higher than 4khz at like say 10khz or higher keeps most of the added input of the network out of the mid up to that point. Same on the sub crossover point. You don't want a crossover network right in the middle of where you listen the most.
My plan is to build a set and decide from there. Starting out with the midrange taken care of really makes things easier.
Bob Brines said:
Well Bob it didn't. I would have loved to be able to hear these speakers myself then I could have really have something definitive to make my mind up one way or the other.
I live in a very beautiful but rural part of England and I just don't know anybody who has these speakers. There's definitely no hi-fi shop in the near locale who would even understand what was meant by full range speakers let alone have them in stock.
cirrus18,
Over here in the colonies, distances are a bit longer but we still manage to make live contacts. You will note that there are a fair number of Brits on this forum. You might try harder.
Actually, your original post would have been more appropriate to another forum. Note that the posters here build speakers. We buy raw driver and lumber, work out designs and build speakers. You come here and disparage our work without ever having heard a single-driver speaker. And no apologies have been forthcoming.
Bob
Over here in the colonies, distances are a bit longer but we still manage to make live contacts. You will note that there are a fair number of Brits on this forum. You might try harder.
Actually, your original post would have been more appropriate to another forum. Note that the posters here build speakers. We buy raw driver and lumber, work out designs and build speakers. You come here and disparage our work without ever having heard a single-driver speaker. And no apologies have been forthcoming.
Bob
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well.
Not disregarrding the OP's comments above so let me get back to that.
Actually that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Sometimes I have difficulty expressing things like this. That's why I said "if Ford were to stop making all the other cars, lay off all the employees" etc. Basically, it would restrict a company (even as big and deep pocketed as Ford) to doing work by hand with materials they had to source much like the manufacturers of audio. I am actually advocating for the high prices here. The comparison is just that a $40,000 Model T would be more like the low end Fostex speakers compared to the "typical" marketed speaker. The Feastrex drivers would be infinitely higher a comparo. Much like a hand built McClaren was $1M. Helluva car. Not for the meek or lacking in funds though.
I don't think I cleared that up, but I am trying. lol. I think I am just saying that I wouldn't discount a speaker at any price tag (even $70K) as being anything less than it's worth. There is so much that goes into it. And like you said, even the mass marketed speakers have millions dumped into R&D for a reason. Many times, they spend lots just to determine the best "value".
Now to the OP. I am not far from your opinion really. I have a tendency to like the sound of good multi ways. I have a much greater tendency to like the very expensive, high end speakers and components that go with them. Of course, the price tag is FAR in excess of almost any FR single driver you will ever find. I sincerely like these types of speakers when I listen to main stream, and even most classical, orchestra, or even smooth jazz types of music. On the other hand, I have sat for hours and listened to a FR system that impressed me so much, that I now enjoy the sport as it were. I was mezmerized for hours by not one, but many full range units. I have now done some traveling and listening and even a little building and I really do like what they do. I am not going to say it is better. I am going to say it is different. The tube amps, the shortened signal paths and "zen" design of "less is more" not only has an appeal, but it really does impress when it is done right. I think, if I had the room, money, and time (and I am working on all three) I would have two rooms. One would be a real HT with serious juice and huge multi way speakers where I could stomp myself silly or kick back and listen to music. It would give me a lot of flexibility to do a lot of different things. And it would cost a fortune. The other room would be a music only listening studio. I honestly don't know if I would open the can of worms to go with Vinyl, but I probably would if for no other reason than to see what it did to open my eyes. I approach it with an open mind. I have heard good, and I have heard some REALLY good systems. They are all different and honestly I like anything that plays music. I listen to my factory car system, my MP3, my boombox, my computer speakers, and my Hi-Fi. I like music. I also like to tinker. If I were going to spend an enormous amount of money and let someone else design and build my speakers, I don't know what I would get. I really don't. I can't imagine liking anything I purchased simply becuause to me. the journey is the destination. I just finished a set of really, really good sounding speakers. I have already bought components to build another experiment, lol
I think that is why we are all here at "Do it Yourself" land. lol
Take care,
Robert
Not disregarrding the OP's comments above so let me get back to that.
Actually that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Sometimes I have difficulty expressing things like this. That's why I said "if Ford were to stop making all the other cars, lay off all the employees" etc. Basically, it would restrict a company (even as big and deep pocketed as Ford) to doing work by hand with materials they had to source much like the manufacturers of audio. I am actually advocating for the high prices here. The comparison is just that a $40,000 Model T would be more like the low end Fostex speakers compared to the "typical" marketed speaker. The Feastrex drivers would be infinitely higher a comparo. Much like a hand built McClaren was $1M. Helluva car. Not for the meek or lacking in funds though.
I don't think I cleared that up, but I am trying. lol. I think I am just saying that I wouldn't discount a speaker at any price tag (even $70K) as being anything less than it's worth. There is so much that goes into it. And like you said, even the mass marketed speakers have millions dumped into R&D for a reason. Many times, they spend lots just to determine the best "value".
Now to the OP. I am not far from your opinion really. I have a tendency to like the sound of good multi ways. I have a much greater tendency to like the very expensive, high end speakers and components that go with them. Of course, the price tag is FAR in excess of almost any FR single driver you will ever find. I sincerely like these types of speakers when I listen to main stream, and even most classical, orchestra, or even smooth jazz types of music. On the other hand, I have sat for hours and listened to a FR system that impressed me so much, that I now enjoy the sport as it were. I was mezmerized for hours by not one, but many full range units. I have now done some traveling and listening and even a little building and I really do like what they do. I am not going to say it is better. I am going to say it is different. The tube amps, the shortened signal paths and "zen" design of "less is more" not only has an appeal, but it really does impress when it is done right. I think, if I had the room, money, and time (and I am working on all three) I would have two rooms. One would be a real HT with serious juice and huge multi way speakers where I could stomp myself silly or kick back and listen to music. It would give me a lot of flexibility to do a lot of different things. And it would cost a fortune. The other room would be a music only listening studio. I honestly don't know if I would open the can of worms to go with Vinyl, but I probably would if for no other reason than to see what it did to open my eyes. I approach it with an open mind. I have heard good, and I have heard some REALLY good systems. They are all different and honestly I like anything that plays music. I listen to my factory car system, my MP3, my boombox, my computer speakers, and my Hi-Fi. I like music. I also like to tinker. If I were going to spend an enormous amount of money and let someone else design and build my speakers, I don't know what I would get. I really don't. I can't imagine liking anything I purchased simply becuause to me. the journey is the destination. I just finished a set of really, really good sounding speakers. I have already bought components to build another experiment, lol
I think that is why we are all here at "Do it Yourself" land. lol
Take care,
Robert
OK -I'll cover some of the major points & then hopefully, it'll be done.
How would you define the 'good old days?' FYI, we've been travelling backwards in many areas for many years. The modern obsession with very small floorstanders being a case in point.
True enough, they can do, assuming you properly match them to appropriate speakers.
Oddly enough, many other people (including many here) have the same ability.
I don't think you'd find many people here arrogant enough to state something is 'best' (a meaningless phrase). Preferable for their requirements, perhaps. Something you obviously haven't quite picked up on WRT FR units is the extremely high motor-powers often used (i.e. a very low Q). Their high mass-corner / inherently well damped nature therefore generally works better with amplifiers with a higher output impedance (low damping factor) than, say, the average commercial SS amp unless you add some series resistance to artificially raise the driver's electrical Q (or lower the amplifiers DF if you prefer). Valve amplifiers generally (though not invariably) have a modest DF, which makes them a naturally better match for many FR drivers, without requiring any compensation. There are SS amplifiers like Nelson Pass's First Watt & Zen units, that work superbly well with such drivers, for similar reasons (they were designed as such). Ditto some of the class D / T amplifiers around now.
I think you're in danger of having a superiority complex, or certainly moving toward an arrogant way of addressing other people. Generally, my reaction to such people is to tell them to get bent. However, as I'm feeling polite today, I will point out that a) not everyone here runs vinyl (who, pray, said they did?) b) not everyone here runs valve amplifiers (again, who, pray, said they did?). I certainly don't run either at present. You might also be interested to discover that most people here could care tuppence about what 'the vast majority of people' do.
My, how very gracious of you. Should we doff our caps now, or just get on with polishing your silverware m'lord?
Indeed we are all different. Very different. Thank God.
Ever tried it, or bothered to investigate the physics behind it? No? Well now, ever notice the dimpled surface on, say, a B&W's kevlar drivers by any chance? You think that might be for a reason, or just for the good of their health?
I think you'll find they have. However, FWIW, just to reitterate some of the points here, which a little reading / investigation would have revealed quite quickly had you bothered to do it:
Both of which are perfectly true, & do hold water, if you think about it. They are not easy to design (think how much harder it is to make, say, an 8in driver cover almost the entire audio band with acceptable performance compared to simply one narrow zone a la a typical bass / midbass driver), and equally, aren't all that cheap to produce.
And they do. All the time.
Quite a few companies do just that -Cain & Cain, CarderSound, Zu Audio, Horning... (would you like me to continue?)
As for other reasons: generally, the units prefer amplifiers somewhat different from the mainstream, unless tweaked to suit. They prioritise different things: the midband over frequency extremes & transient handling in the lower registers (although most midbass units aren't much better, & frequently worse). The larger drivers are also somewhat directional compared to a multiway setup; fine for one listening position when you've optimised the setup, but less good for other people. And so on & so forth. Generally, you will find they work better with certain types of music than others, just like any other speaker. The big B&Ws & Wilson's I've heard for example are vile on music such as Eliza Carthy, Loreena McKennitt, the Doobie Brothers, much jazz & small-piece classical etc. Equally, small FR drivers aren't much cop at Mahler etc., or Motorhead at ~live SPLs. They're not designed for that.
You have KEF Q55s at present? Bob's suggestion of a 207 in a 35 litre BR should improve on them on most material & in an MLTL or BVR & things should get better still. It's not all that hard to improve on modestly priced commercial speakers & the 207 & its 206 stablemate are used in speakers up to about $8,000.
A 'proper' dynamic range can only really be achieved with multiple HE 15in woofers mated to compression drivers IMHO.
FR drivers, as noted, can't handle huge LF transient swings. That said, neither can most modestly priced multiways either, so they're in good company. An 8in unit like a 207 should match most commercial floorstanders / standmouts in this respect up to about £1,000 though, give or take.
Hardly surprising. Most hifi shops haven't heard of much beyond what appears in the pages of Hifi Choice. Wilmslow Audio have the Fostex distribution rights for the UK.
As Bob pointed out, this is not a forum for commercial speakers, but for DIYers, i.e people who actually design & build their own, either for the enjoyment of it, or because they can do better for their own requirements than the major box shifters can for the same money. With a little effort, you might've been able to visit someone with a system you could listen to, but given that your attitude toward other people requires some major work, methinks there won't be all that many so inclined. Just so that we are clear, with zero personal experience & knowledge of the subject, you have been pontificating your own views in a manner which seems deliberately intended to try to cause contention and / or irritation. Sorry, but it's not going to work. Water off a duck's back old bean, especially given the fact that your lack of knowledge only makes your pitiful attempts at patronising other people all the more inept. It does give us a bit of a laugh though.
cirrus18 said:
How would you define the 'good old days?' FYI, we've been travelling backwards in many areas for many years. The modern obsession with very small floorstanders being a case in point.
True enough, they can do, assuming you properly match them to appropriate speakers.
Oddly enough, many other people (including many here) have the same ability.
I don't think you'd find many people here arrogant enough to state something is 'best' (a meaningless phrase). Preferable for their requirements, perhaps. Something you obviously haven't quite picked up on WRT FR units is the extremely high motor-powers often used (i.e. a very low Q). Their high mass-corner / inherently well damped nature therefore generally works better with amplifiers with a higher output impedance (low damping factor) than, say, the average commercial SS amp unless you add some series resistance to artificially raise the driver's electrical Q (or lower the amplifiers DF if you prefer). Valve amplifiers generally (though not invariably) have a modest DF, which makes them a naturally better match for many FR drivers, without requiring any compensation. There are SS amplifiers like Nelson Pass's First Watt & Zen units, that work superbly well with such drivers, for similar reasons (they were designed as such). Ditto some of the class D / T amplifiers around now.
I think you're in danger of having a superiority complex, or certainly moving toward an arrogant way of addressing other people. Generally, my reaction to such people is to tell them to get bent. However, as I'm feeling polite today, I will point out that a) not everyone here runs vinyl (who, pray, said they did?) b) not everyone here runs valve amplifiers (again, who, pray, said they did?). I certainly don't run either at present. You might also be interested to discover that most people here could care tuppence about what 'the vast majority of people' do.
My, how very gracious of you. Should we doff our caps now, or just get on with polishing your silverware m'lord?
Indeed we are all different. Very different. Thank God.
Ever tried it, or bothered to investigate the physics behind it? No? Well now, ever notice the dimpled surface on, say, a B&W's kevlar drivers by any chance? You think that might be for a reason, or just for the good of their health?
I think you'll find they have. However, FWIW, just to reitterate some of the points here, which a little reading / investigation would have revealed quite quickly had you bothered to do it:
Both of which are perfectly true, & do hold water, if you think about it. They are not easy to design (think how much harder it is to make, say, an 8in driver cover almost the entire audio band with acceptable performance compared to simply one narrow zone a la a typical bass / midbass driver), and equally, aren't all that cheap to produce.
And they do. All the time.
Quite a few companies do just that -Cain & Cain, CarderSound, Zu Audio, Horning... (would you like me to continue?)
As for other reasons: generally, the units prefer amplifiers somewhat different from the mainstream, unless tweaked to suit. They prioritise different things: the midband over frequency extremes & transient handling in the lower registers (although most midbass units aren't much better, & frequently worse). The larger drivers are also somewhat directional compared to a multiway setup; fine for one listening position when you've optimised the setup, but less good for other people. And so on & so forth. Generally, you will find they work better with certain types of music than others, just like any other speaker. The big B&Ws & Wilson's I've heard for example are vile on music such as Eliza Carthy, Loreena McKennitt, the Doobie Brothers, much jazz & small-piece classical etc. Equally, small FR drivers aren't much cop at Mahler etc., or Motorhead at ~live SPLs. They're not designed for that.
You have KEF Q55s at present? Bob's suggestion of a 207 in a 35 litre BR should improve on them on most material & in an MLTL or BVR & things should get better still. It's not all that hard to improve on modestly priced commercial speakers & the 207 & its 206 stablemate are used in speakers up to about $8,000.
A 'proper' dynamic range can only really be achieved with multiple HE 15in woofers mated to compression drivers IMHO.
FR drivers, as noted, can't handle huge LF transient swings. That said, neither can most modestly priced multiways either, so they're in good company. An 8in unit like a 207 should match most commercial floorstanders / standmouts in this respect up to about £1,000 though, give or take.
cirrus18 said:
Hardly surprising. Most hifi shops haven't heard of much beyond what appears in the pages of Hifi Choice. Wilmslow Audio have the Fostex distribution rights for the UK.
As Bob pointed out, this is not a forum for commercial speakers, but for DIYers, i.e people who actually design & build their own, either for the enjoyment of it, or because they can do better for their own requirements than the major box shifters can for the same money. With a little effort, you might've been able to visit someone with a system you could listen to, but given that your attitude toward other people requires some major work, methinks there won't be all that many so inclined. Just so that we are clear, with zero personal experience & knowledge of the subject, you have been pontificating your own views in a manner which seems deliberately intended to try to cause contention and / or irritation. Sorry, but it's not going to work. Water off a duck's back old bean, especially given the fact that your lack of knowledge only makes your pitiful attempts at patronising other people all the more inept. It does give us a bit of a laugh though.
Wow Scott,
This is why I like this forum. You guys can politely express some of my feelings lol.
For the record, I do not have Vinyl or Valves. I have heard MANY valve amps used on both FR singles and Multi ways and loved them. I run a CHEAP SS amp on my FR speakers and I like what they do together. (Then I am easily amused lol). I have heard only one Nelson Pass amp and to be honest if I can ever get enough cahones to try and steal it from the guy, it will be mine!
Then again, I may one day try to build one of my own. I REALLY liked the way that thing sounded. It was an F1 I believe.
Well said Moose,
Take care,
Robert
This is why I like this forum. You guys can politely express some of my feelings lol.
For the record, I do not have Vinyl or Valves. I have heard MANY valve amps used on both FR singles and Multi ways and loved them. I run a CHEAP SS amp on my FR speakers and I like what they do together. (Then I am easily amused lol). I have heard only one Nelson Pass amp and to be honest if I can ever get enough cahones to try and steal it from the guy, it will be mine!
Then again, I may one day try to build one of my own. I REALLY liked the way that thing sounded. It was an F1 I believe.
Well said Moose,
Take care,
Robert
cirrus18 said:
You could also look at it another way: If multi-driver systems are so good, why are there full-range systems in existence at all?
Here's my take on it -
It is far easier for a manufacturer, rep, & salesman to point out tweeters, midranges, & arrays of woofers as a way of justifying retail price than to highlight a single driver system and say it sounds "great". With much of the retail experience for loudspeakers moving online, a picture of an impressive face is worth a thousand words especially when dealing with a typical consumer. More stuff is "better" in other words.
What full-range systems have done however is opened the door to the small, handcrafted loudspeaker manufacturer who is able to cultivate and appreciative customer base that gets to deal one-on-one with the designer. This in addition to the staggering DIY community should you decide to go your own way. I am actually happy to see the major brands fighting over an ever shrinking retail space while the little guys keep plugging along and their customers sit back smiling.
Just my $0.02.......
(And yes, in my past I had a long association on the manufacturing side of loudspeakers and consumer hi-fi.)
OK After reading both the OP's and Scott's post again I feel like saying something else.
Is it just me or did the OP come here to justify an ignorant point of view? He has been in the business a long time but never heard a good FR set up. He still hasn't listened but has obviously dismissed the idea of it being even a good design, much less viable.
Have an open mind man. Most of us here will admit that some multi ways, even with crossovers sound terrific. Most of us would likely own some of them, but choose to go this route most of the time. None of us are on the loudspeaker forum bashing multi-way guys for "kidding themselves" thinking that crossovers are the way to go are we?
When you have the opportunity to listen to some of the better sounding FR set ups out there and compare them to your reference of "good sound" then you would be entitled to such an opinion. Until then, at least accept the fact that "better" is a relative term.
/end rant
Robert
Is it just me or did the OP come here to justify an ignorant point of view? He has been in the business a long time but never heard a good FR set up. He still hasn't listened but has obviously dismissed the idea of it being even a good design, much less viable.
Have an open mind man. Most of us here will admit that some multi ways, even with crossovers sound terrific. Most of us would likely own some of them, but choose to go this route most of the time. None of us are on the loudspeaker forum bashing multi-way guys for "kidding themselves" thinking that crossovers are the way to go are we?
When you have the opportunity to listen to some of the better sounding FR set ups out there and compare them to your reference of "good sound" then you would be entitled to such an opinion. Until then, at least accept the fact that "better" is a relative term.
/end rant
Robert
'tis the season & all that jazz. 
cirrus18 said:
So, just how many do you think would be sold & where?
Over the last year, all sectors of retail audio have ridden into near collapse and loudspeakers have been very hard hit. I have have many friends in the industry right now and some of them have told me of staggering declines, 80% in one instance. Some high-end brands you know today will not be here tomorrow. It is no longer the 1980's when a Stereophile review and 80-100 retailers around the US kept you comfortably secure. The small audio shop is in not much better shape either. The dealers that used to be able to spend time with each customer have gone away or moved into home theater and custom integration and they too are getting the crap beaten out of them. And, manufacturers can no longer slap a high margin price tag on an item and expect it to sell. Yes, your R&D is worth something but it is very hard to justify a huge margin on that alone, especially in a system containing a single driver, a PCB with some parts & wiring, and a nicely veneered box. It doesn't matter how much additional bunny grease & pixie dust it might also contain. The road is littered with products like that over the years and rightfully so.
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