cirrus18 said:
I've thought about this. The single driver speakers that I have heard have been like this:
* Charming sound, girls sing along with them
* Somewhat limited volume capacity
* Limited bass capacity / extension
* Large box
* Relatively cheap
When you have a relatively large cabinet that is expensive to ship and takes up show room space, and factor in the care required not to overload the drivers, you start to see how these are perceived as a hard sell. Especially when there's little return. And they require peculiar amplifiers, too. Little ten watt tube things. Weird stuff, too much to explain, hard sell.
Also, multiple drivers give people a boneur. "Oh, this speaker has FOUR of these circle things, it must be really good. Must pump out a real good jam." Easy to explain! Many drivers is good! This car has fifteen cylinders! Look at it go!
fullrangedrivers don't sound better, they simply sound diffrent.
my 8" hemp does no even come close in the highs to my "cheap", old seas tweeter. but damed, i never heard nick cave as good as over my hemps.
on the other hand, my brohter doesn't like my hemps, my fostexes or my veravoxes, but he loves his b&w speakers he bought for 15.000 euro. it's fine for me, and it's fine for him, though i prefer my modded fe108es (c37, added magnets) in the metronoms i built for about 350 euro.
it's a matter of taste. as bob told you, you have to try it. and if you don't like it (and my guess is many people don't like fullrangers), you cann still sell tham at ebay.
sincerely
mike
my 8" hemp does no even come close in the highs to my "cheap", old seas tweeter. but damed, i never heard nick cave as good as over my hemps.
on the other hand, my brohter doesn't like my hemps, my fostexes or my veravoxes, but he loves his b&w speakers he bought for 15.000 euro. it's fine for me, and it's fine for him, though i prefer my modded fe108es (c37, added magnets) in the metronoms i built for about 350 euro.
it's a matter of taste. as bob told you, you have to try it. and if you don't like it (and my guess is many people don't like fullrangers), you cann still sell tham at ebay.
sincerely
mike
Well.
As a small manufacturer myself, I have found that the FR drivers are simply more fun to build for. The complexity of cabinets and soul searched tweaking is what us sorts of people just do. We would just as likely be hand building race cars for a living.
Also, the MOST extended system (by a long shot) I have ever heard is a full range. Albiet it was a 70000 dollar pair of drivers, but anyways, you get the point. FR drivers get to deal with fewer compromises to make more music.
I agree with Bob Brine, go and try them for yourself if you have a table saw. There is a hell of alot of difference between a bose computer speaker set and a high quality FR Hi Fi system. When you buy the parts, you can just look at them and know what they are and what they can and cannot do. The hyper expensive Feastrex drivers I just spoke of are in a different ballpark entirely.
True, many full range systems "lack" ultimate resolution on one or another end of the spectrum. Full rangers also vary immensely in the "coherency" factor as well. Hit and miss, par for the course in any sector of audio.
-Clark
I suppose that I have generally found that people involved in full rangers are usually more knowledgeable about "music." perhaps less about "audio."
As a small manufacturer myself, I have found that the FR drivers are simply more fun to build for. The complexity of cabinets and soul searched tweaking is what us sorts of people just do. We would just as likely be hand building race cars for a living.
Also, the MOST extended system (by a long shot) I have ever heard is a full range. Albiet it was a 70000 dollar pair of drivers, but anyways, you get the point. FR drivers get to deal with fewer compromises to make more music.
I agree with Bob Brine, go and try them for yourself if you have a table saw. There is a hell of alot of difference between a bose computer speaker set and a high quality FR Hi Fi system. When you buy the parts, you can just look at them and know what they are and what they can and cannot do. The hyper expensive Feastrex drivers I just spoke of are in a different ballpark entirely.
True, many full range systems "lack" ultimate resolution on one or another end of the spectrum. Full rangers also vary immensely in the "coherency" factor as well. Hit and miss, par for the course in any sector of audio.
-Clark
I suppose that I have generally found that people involved in full rangers are usually more knowledgeable about "music." perhaps less about "audio."
Re: Well.
Please bare with me on this and don't take it the wrong way and jump down my throat...
Not saying that Feastrex drivers are hype, but I can't see the "tall" prices for them. Open-field coils are what started dynamic drivers in the first place. They were found in the simplest, cheapest table-top tube radios of the time. THAT'S all there was back then, a.k.a. - no permanent magnets at the time. It's by no means a new technology that costs thousands of dollars, especially for one driver that requires the heavy power supply electronics to even power them before the amplifier.
Alnico is another one. It's just an early form of a permanent magnet. It doesn't warrant top dollar for its advanced technology, which BTW isn't advanced technology.
Both are very old and out-dated technologies that theoretically should now be selling for pennies on the dollar.
...Just my opinion.
I agree. I would even venture to say that we care more about the music.
I still don't understand this process completely. Honestly, I haven't done a whole lot of research on it. I would very much like to hear what effects it has on the drivers. In fact, I would do it myself but I have no patience for it (I'm sure way too time consuming) and I would hate to mess up perfectly good drivers if I did something wrong.
And for a quick answer to the OP, fullrange/widerange, whatever you want to call it, is not a bunch of hype. It has a way of handing you the musical truth on a platter, something multi-way systems can't do.
blumenco said:
Please bare with me on this and don't take it the wrong way and jump down my throat...
Not saying that Feastrex drivers are hype, but I can't see the "tall" prices for them. Open-field coils are what started dynamic drivers in the first place. They were found in the simplest, cheapest table-top tube radios of the time. THAT'S all there was back then, a.k.a. - no permanent magnets at the time. It's by no means a new technology that costs thousands of dollars, especially for one driver that requires the heavy power supply electronics to even power them before the amplifier.
Alnico is another one. It's just an early form of a permanent magnet. It doesn't warrant top dollar for its advanced technology, which BTW isn't advanced technology.
Both are very old and out-dated technologies that theoretically should now be selling for pennies on the dollar.
...Just my opinion.
I agree. I would even venture to say that we care more about the music.
Alex from Oz said:
I still don't understand this process completely. Honestly, I haven't done a whole lot of research on it. I would very much like to hear what effects it has on the drivers. In fact, I would do it myself but I have no patience for it (I'm sure way too time consuming) and I would hate to mess up perfectly good drivers if I did something wrong.
And for a quick answer to the OP, fullrange/widerange, whatever you want to call it, is not a bunch of hype. It has a way of handing you the musical truth on a platter, something multi-way systems can't do.
I have B&W speakers that i like for loud rock or country music. I have full range open baffles that i like for jazz, acoustic & female vocals. I wouldn't rock out with Robin Trower on my low wattage full range system or listen to David Grisman on my B&W's.
I guess listening fatigue plays into the formula also. I got a new dvd/cd player about a year ago that had all kinds of settings to adjust the sound to "Rock, Movies, Classical, different rooms, caves, venues, adding bass, equalizer, etc. After making adjustments to make my CD's sound better, which they did, with all the adjustments and listening to them like that for a couple of months, I set everthing back to plain vanilla and it sounded better. I could listen to it with less fatigue and with a more natural sound than even with adding bass & treble.
Most full range fans are also into amps that have no controls other than volume.
Maybe the analogy of if you prefer the "girl next door" to the "centerfold" or what society tells us we should like also applies to music, cars, clothes, etc.
I guess listening fatigue plays into the formula also. I got a new dvd/cd player about a year ago that had all kinds of settings to adjust the sound to "Rock, Movies, Classical, different rooms, caves, venues, adding bass, equalizer, etc. After making adjustments to make my CD's sound better, which they did, with all the adjustments and listening to them like that for a couple of months, I set everthing back to plain vanilla and it sounded better. I could listen to it with less fatigue and with a more natural sound than even with adding bass & treble.
Most full range fans are also into amps that have no controls other than volume.
Maybe the analogy of if you prefer the "girl next door" to the "centerfold" or what society tells us we should like also applies to music, cars, clothes, etc.
Re: Re: Well.
You could use the same argument saying a new top of the line BMW isn't worth the $$ because it is essentially a Mode T and those were cheap. Or a precision swiss watch vrs a timex.
With AlNiCo, one of the compnent materials was made a strategic material during the cold war.
dave
chops said:
You could use the same argument saying a new top of the line BMW isn't worth the $$ because it is essentially a Mode T and those were cheap. Or a precision swiss watch vrs a timex.
With AlNiCo, one of the compnent materials was made a strategic material during the cold war.
dave
So, after what could be considered an inflammatory initial post the poster is yet to respond to those who have taken their time to - politely - state their positions and lend assistance. Okay, it has only been a day or so; it will be interesting to see if a / what response is forthcoming.
Cheers
Cheers
Re: Re: Re: Well.
Not at all as I was not referring to either as an inferior product over what's available today. I'm just saying that I think it's a bit ridicules for somebody to charge an outrageous amount of money for an extremely old technique, just because "now" it is rare and unusual. It's not like they invented and patented the design, they just brought it back to life with maybe a couple added tweaks of their own.
A BMW on the other hand has a lot more to offer to the table than a Model T Ford. Build quality, safety, handling, performance, cabin and cargo space, air conditioning, etc, etc.
If Ford stopped all production on all of their current vehicles and resorted back to building Model T's and Model A's with a couple of new tweaks like air bags and a/c, do you think they would survive by putting them on the market at $40k a pop? Doubt it.
That's all I'm trying to say.
I don't have anything against open-field coil speakers at all. I actually have the full understanding about them and how they work thanks to my father and his tube radio repair service. Hell, my father has a garage full of them, and if he had a matching pair of them along with the power supply chassis' to run them with, I'd love to try a pair out on my system. That doesn't mean I'd be willing to go out and spend $70k on a pair brand new, even if I could afford it.
Anywho...
planet10 said:
Not at all as I was not referring to either as an inferior product over what's available today. I'm just saying that I think it's a bit ridicules for somebody to charge an outrageous amount of money for an extremely old technique, just because "now" it is rare and unusual. It's not like they invented and patented the design, they just brought it back to life with maybe a couple added tweaks of their own.
A BMW on the other hand has a lot more to offer to the table than a Model T Ford. Build quality, safety, handling, performance, cabin and cargo space, air conditioning, etc, etc.
If Ford stopped all production on all of their current vehicles and resorted back to building Model T's and Model A's with a couple of new tweaks like air bags and a/c, do you think they would survive by putting them on the market at $40k a pop? Doubt it.
That's all I'm trying to say.
I don't have anything against open-field coil speakers at all. I actually have the full understanding about them and how they work thanks to my father and his tube radio repair service. Hell, my father has a garage full of them, and if he had a matching pair of them along with the power supply chassis' to run them with, I'd love to try a pair out on my system. That doesn't mean I'd be willing to go out and spend $70k on a pair brand new, even if I could afford it.
Anywho...
I assume you're aware that AlNiCo & Field Coils dwindled primarily because they cost more to make? Given that they cost more, they, er, cost more, if you take my meaning.
Not that I'm defending gigantic prices -when it comes to $70,000 drivers, I suddenly find I have other things to be doing. However, it's worth pointing out that both field coils & AlNiCo both potentially offer superior performance in several areas to the more commonly used motors around at the moment (especially the former). The big box-shifters aren't particularly interested, as they're not all that bothered about performance per se (or at least, it's a rather low order of priority compared to their profit margins) so such things are now primarily in the hands of rather small companies, where economies of scale don't really come into play.
Now these I would like to play with: Supravox's 8in FR AlNiCo & field-coils, respectively: http://www.supravox.fr/anglais/haut_parleurs/215_2000.htm
http://www.supravox.fr/anglais/haut_parleurs/215_2000_EXC.htm
Both about the same price -1120 Euros a pop from Spectrum audio. Not loose change, that's for sure, but in line with some of the top Lowthers & AERs, and not completely unreachable either, with a bit of hard saving.
Not that I'm defending gigantic prices -when it comes to $70,000 drivers, I suddenly find I have other things to be doing. However, it's worth pointing out that both field coils & AlNiCo both potentially offer superior performance in several areas to the more commonly used motors around at the moment (especially the former). The big box-shifters aren't particularly interested, as they're not all that bothered about performance per se (or at least, it's a rather low order of priority compared to their profit margins) so such things are now primarily in the hands of rather small companies, where economies of scale don't really come into play.
Now these I would like to play with: Supravox's 8in FR AlNiCo & field-coils, respectively: http://www.supravox.fr/anglais/haut_parleurs/215_2000.htm
http://www.supravox.fr/anglais/haut_parleurs/215_2000_EXC.htm
Both about the same price -1120 Euros a pop from Spectrum audio. Not loose change, that's for sure, but in line with some of the top Lowthers & AERs, and not completely unreachable either, with a bit of hard saving.
Scottmoose said:
Yes I am aware of that and realize they cost more to manufacture. With field coils however, the added cost is mainly to the added electronics that are required to come with it. Without the electronics, you have no way to use them.
That's precisely what I was getting at. Even at 1000+ Euros each (and I have no clue what that comes to in US$), that still seems a bit steep considering that still doesn't include the required equipment to run them.
I don't know about this (alnico that is). And no, I don't mean that I doubt you, I'm just openly admitting that I don't know enough about them to know why they are better than current magnet technology. What makes alnico so much better than current magnet technologies, especially like Neodymium... Smaller yet stronger than that of ceramic magnets and small enough to be placed within the VC gap to guarantee that the VC never leaves the magnetic field throughout it's entire travel.
Again, yes, a better price point but still seems a bit steep, at least to me anyways. And you probably have to put down an equal amount if not more for the associated electronics to get them to work before you can even use them.
I don't think it's the field coils that make them expensive, I think it's the leather surrounds.
(Ricardo Montalban voice) Fine Corinthian leather, like the Chrysler Cordoba.
http://www.cordobaclubusa.com/images/800_1976ChryslerCordobaSportCoupe.jpg
(Ricardo Montalban voice) Fine Corinthian leather, like the Chrysler Cordoba.
http://www.cordobaclubusa.com/images/800_1976ChryslerCordobaSportCoupe.jpg
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.