I may try to listen again later at evening and use an angle ruler as well
even without listening just measure the angle between the corners from Your listening position
This is something I've never been able to get my head around.
How can two horizontally positioned (for the sake of simplicity) point sources give the impression of height?
Tried the tests from SpeakerDave.
Seems I can get the piano to leave the left speaker, but the sibilance of the vocalist quickly shows exactly where the speakers are. Wait, tried the same track (dry less spread) again, eyes closed. Sound does come from the centre. System linked below.
Chris
How can two horizontally positioned (for the sake of simplicity) point sources give the impression of height?
Tried the tests from SpeakerDave.
Seems I can get the piano to leave the left speaker, but the sibilance of the vocalist quickly shows exactly where the speakers are. Wait, tried the same track (dry less spread) again, eyes closed. Sound does come from the centre. System linked below.
Chris
Psychoacoustics. At least partly. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/201081-disappearing-act-post2797370.html
dave
Yes, there are ~3 different mechanisms involved
1. The Pinnae effect.
2 The localization due to spectral BW. and
3. The Cultural (learning and age) depending effect (Hear is what you see),
Pictures: 1-3....
b
Attachments
I've just tried the tests. Now can I remember what I heard
dry was quite obviously piano hard left and vocalist hard right, though it didn't give me the impression it was coming from the speakers, more to the left and to the right of the speakers.
wet still sounded hard left and hard right but the vocalist sounded like she was in the bathroom The piano actually sounded wider in space.
multitap sounded quite similar to dry, piano had a bit more 3dimentionality than dry though, vocals sounded a little strange.
dry less spread definitely sounds the most natural with the vocalist starting off a bit to the right of central but seemingly moving to centre. The piano is to the left of centre but the higher notes seem to start to overlap with the singers position.
morewet is just weird. I picture he singer as leaning in at 45 degrees from the right in towards the centre of the room piano is quite to the left.
Tony.
dry was quite obviously piano hard left and vocalist hard right, though it didn't give me the impression it was coming from the speakers, more to the left and to the right of the speakers.
wet still sounded hard left and hard right but the vocalist sounded like she was in the bathroom
The piano actually sounded wider in space. multitap sounded quite similar to dry, piano had a bit more 3dimentionality than dry though, vocals sounded a little strange.
dry less spread definitely sounds the most natural with the vocalist starting off a bit to the right of central but seemingly moving to centre. The piano is to the left of centre but the higher notes seem to start to overlap with the singers position.
morewet is just weird. I picture he singer as leaning in at 45 degrees from the right in towards the centre of the room
piano is quite to the left. Tony.
This is a two tap delay line so it will add coloration to the voice i.e. the measurable frequency response would be messed up, unlike a diffuse space with tons of small echoes. It was interesting to me that even this rudimentary acoustic space made headphone listening less uncomfortable.
dry less spread definitely sounds the most natural with the vocalist starting off a bit to the right of central but seemingly moving to centre. The piano is to the left of centre but the higher notes seem to start to overlap with the singers position.
morewet is just weird. I picture he singer as leaning in at 45 degrees from the right in towards the centre of the room
Tony.
Also interesting that many are quoting different spatial perspectives for the two instruments. The recordings are symmetrical: they start with a hard left/hard right musician and the panning I did to slightly diminish the spread was balanced. I notice the same: the piano is always seems farther away.
David
Hi Rudolf, I listened to the youtube video just now and my experience (on my speakers) was pretty much as you described it for your headphones except in reverse
. I got the sense that the soundstage was shifted to the left somewhat but other than that I didn't get the feeling that the right speaker was dead. When you talk left and right do you mean your left when facing the speakers or looking away from the speakers.? Tony.
haha Dave all frames of reference, I think of the left speaker being the one on MY left when I'm sitting looking at them, but I guess technically it is really the right. Luckily I also hook up the amp channels using the same logic
Oh and that simpsons episode is bogus, The toilets here don't swirl in either direction! The water does go down the plughole in the bath in an anti clockwise direction from memory.
all frames of reference, I think of the left speaker being the one on MY left when I'm sitting looking at them, but I guess technically it is really the right. Luckily I also hook up the amp channels using the same logic Oh and that simpsons episode is bogus, The toilets here don't swirl in either direction! The water does go down the plughole in the bath in an anti clockwise direction from memory.
Actually this is quite interesting ! The spread depends somewhat on the room width and the listening distance. In my 25 m2 room at 3 m distance I get something like 80 degrees spread in the dry sample. If I move closer to about 2 m distance I get about 120 degrees spread. Also, if moving further than 3 m spread narrows, naturally.
And, with the center panned samples no hole in the middle ! (Because there is a speaker there
) So I can say with SSSx5 it is possible to span 120 degrees without imaging problems ! - Elias
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As requested by rudolf I listened it on my speakers and not the headphone.
For al piano left , and female singer right.
1 Mozart dry: sound right in front of the horn-mouth center.
2 Mozart wed : sound moves up above the horn and a bit behind the loudspeaker and the singer and piano are moved from the center of the horn exit above behind it and a bit more to the center.
3 Mozart multitap : the sound is more around the horn. But still central to the horn.
4 Mozart more wet: sounds like from it comes out of a tunnel or huge empty and reflecting room like a empty church building.
For al piano left , and female singer right.
1 Mozart dry: sound right in front of the horn-mouth center.
2 Mozart wed : sound moves up above the horn and a bit behind the loudspeaker and the singer and piano are moved from the center of the horn exit above behind it and a bit more to the center.
3 Mozart multitap : the sound is more around the horn. But still central to the horn.
4 Mozart more wet: sounds like from it comes out of a tunnel or huge empty and reflecting room like a empty church building.
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Yeah but according to Huxleys Doors Of Perception one can open up the filters by taking outrageous amounts os mescaline.
Guess that could help with the whole 'disappearing act' thing.
Actually this is quite interesting ! The spread depends somewhat on the room width and the listening distance.
...
So I can say with SSSx5 it is possible to span 120 degrees without imaging problems !
of course! it is all basic trigonometry
yet people prefer to ignore it
Not only !
Namely, if I listen at 120 degrees conventional stereo triangle (twice as wide as normal) I don't hear anything in the middle even for a center panned sound. but SSSx5 produces these angles still ok without loss in the center!
So, it's trigonometry and psychoacoustics
- Elias
Interesting. Do they get loud enough for you?Tweeters are the Visaton FRSX5. They are very basic and bottom budget cone drivers, but with an unrivaled forward directivity (> 2kHz):
More information on the FRS5X.
I found LSD to be more effective. There are still filters, just that you can be given the opportunity to reprogram them.
dave
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