Two more files as requested. The first is no reverb but much reduced seperation. If it doesn't pull the image off your speakers then you need to check channel balance etc. Both sources should be nearly centered. (dry less spread) I noted that this shift alone made the sound on headphones much more natural, no extreme seperation.
The second clip has reverberation added but to a higher degree than before. Yes, swimming in reverb. In fact the direct component is reduced, much like moving the soloists farther away in the previous space. Again, I would think this would really pull the image out of your speakers. (mozart more wet)
Again, these are not zip files. Download to your desktop and change .zip to .mp3.
Let me know how they work on your systems,
David
p.s. both wet and more wet had the seperation diminished somewhat before reverberting.
The second clip has reverberation added but to a higher degree than before. Yes, swimming in reverb. In fact the direct component is reduced, much like moving the soloists farther away in the previous space. Again, I would think this would really pull the image out of your speakers. (mozart more wet)
Again, these are not zip files. Download to your desktop and change .zip to .mp3.
Let me know how they work on your systems,
David
p.s. both wet and more wet had the seperation diminished somewhat before reverberting.
Last edited:
It's real fun, if others put up the experiments I always wanted to do, but never got the drive/guts/balls to prepare by myself.
"dry less spread" is again completely pulled off from the speakers. In fact both phantom sources are almost on axis (< 10° off) - much less spread than in "mozartweb" or "more wet".
"mozart more wet" pushes the phantom sources further down the (virtual) hall, keeping the directions the same as in "mozartwet".
I believe that this separation alone would be enough to separate the phantom images from the speakers - even without any reverb added.
Rudolf
With the first set of files I had the same effects as Rudolf with my Omni.
But let me add another wrinkle to all this: The disappearing act is not only about shifting hard panned sounds off the speakers somwhere within the horizontal plane or a bit backwards or forwards. When I hear e.g. this voice in the right "hemisphere" of my room it still does not seem to emanate from a speaker. It might as well be real, only a little smaller than real or farhter away. There is no tweeter that "peaks out" or anything else that "unmasks" the speaker as a speaker (despite the diffracting cone in use).
And for that sensation, it does not matter if I play dry or wet or anything in between.
But let me add another wrinkle to all this: The disappearing act is not only about shifting hard panned sounds off the speakers somwhere within the horizontal plane or a bit backwards or forwards. When I hear e.g. this voice in the right "hemisphere" of my room it still does not seem to emanate from a speaker. It might as well be real, only a little smaller than real or farhter away. There is no tweeter that "peaks out" or anything else that "unmasks" the speaker as a speaker (despite the diffracting cone in use).
And for that sensation, it does not matter if I play dry or wet or anything in between.
Last edited:
"Dry Less Spread" sounds generally centered on mine, with her voice leaning a little right and the keyboard a little left.
The one with added reverb seems to have the same qualities, but the added reverb seems to pull the image back out wider, almost as if the reverb was added with "wide room" rather than "large room"
In both cases though, with your eyes closed, the speaker locations were not really apparent.
It's real fun, if others put up the experiments I always wanted to do, but never got the drive/guts/balls to prepare by myself.
I'm just amazed at what tools are becoming available these days. I've had Cool Edit Pro on my laptop for a few years (it is now Adobe Audition) and only very slowly started to learn what it is capable of. Good for these kind of experiments.
Your system seems to be better than average at translating the headphone experience to a room experience.
Interesting.
David
Thats what it sounded like to me on headphones. Just slightly discernable separation.
David
I listen with my headphone sennheiser hd457 on my laptop.
My comment.
1 Mozart dry: left I hear dull sounding piano, in my right ear I hear a over-damped female voice in my right ear and she is singing on the right side.
2 Mozartwet: I hear a piano and a female singer in a space where the piano locates to the left and the female singer locates to the right. Due the headphone the space is in my head. In the dry version it was in my right ear and left ear not in my head.
4 Multitap: sounds a bit more spacious, i hear a kind of echo of the female voice in the right ear.
Last edited:
1 dryless spread: Sounds in my head so like in a space only a bit over-damped/dull.
2 Mozart more wet: Sounds like they are performing in a huge space like a church. almost echo like.
Last edited:
This test shows me why I prefer live recordings over studio recordings they are unnatural.
I think I am very sensitive to the missing space in the recording of a studio mix.
Also when I am improving something successful on my gear it almost always translates into a better spatial-sound.
And that experience I have lately with the kugelwellen hornspeaker/dipool low and hybrid tube amplifier.
I think I am very sensitive to the missing space in the recording of a studio mix.
Also when I am improving something successful on my gear it almost always translates into a better spatial-sound.
And that experience I have lately with the kugelwellen hornspeaker/dipool low and hybrid tube amplifier.
Last edited:
Thanks David S for the samples ! I listened with my SSSx5 prototype, described here
Elias Pekonen Home Page - Stereophonic Sound from a Single Speaker
mozart dry: the singer is located behind the right hand corner of the room. the piano is on the left side behind the wall more distant than the singer.
mozart wet: both the singer and the piano are a bit more centered than in dry sample. Both are located behind the front wall, maybe 10 m.
multitap: no comment, artificial.
dry less spread: the piano a bit left from the center, singer almost at center. Piano is behind the front wall, few meters. The woman is standing in front of the piano, her feet touching my front wall.
mozart more wet: Piano and singer almost in center. I'm sitting in the behind of the hall, the singer and piano are in the stage of the hall, distance maybe 20+ m.
Conclusion: The sound allways leaves the speaker And I have only one speaker !
- Elias
Elias Pekonen Home Page - Stereophonic Sound from a Single Speaker
mozart dry: the singer is located behind the right hand corner of the room. the piano is on the left side behind the wall more distant than the singer.
mozart wet: both the singer and the piano are a bit more centered than in dry sample. Both are located behind the front wall, maybe 10 m.
multitap: no comment, artificial.
dry less spread: the piano a bit left from the center, singer almost at center. Piano is behind the front wall, few meters. The woman is standing in front of the piano, her feet touching my front wall.
mozart more wet: Piano and singer almost in center. I'm sitting in the behind of the hall, the singer and piano are in the stage of the hall, distance maybe 20+ m.
Conclusion: The sound allways leaves the speaker
And I have only one speaker ! - Elias
Helmuth,
does it make much sense to report headphone impressions only - without the loudspeaker experience? It would be much more interesting to read, how those mp3s work on your kugelwellen hornspeaker/dipool system. When do the horns disappear?
Anyone prepared to try?
I'd like to share my findings from listening to Dire Straits "Tunnel of love" from the "Money for nothing" album. There are alternative mixes of "Tunnel of love" with a different channel distribution - so you need "Money for nothing" - or this you tube video.
With my headphones (Sennheiser HD 433) this track is not spectacular. I found it leaning somewhat to the right channel, but nothing special.
Listening to this song with my speakers, the left one seemed to be dead. There was nothing to be heard outside of 15° left from the listening axis (speaker is at ~30°). The right speaker was playing all the time. Innocent listeners, who don't know how both speakers are necessary to project a center phantom image, would have believed the left speaker to be disconnected. Only 6:26 min into the song finally an acoustic guitar starts in the direction of the left speaker.
A headphone, pressing a complete stadium stage between our ears, can't really rival the spatial resolution of a good loudspeaker system IMHO.
I did a reading about my audio hobby on a school for a class with electronics students. I did instal my gear it was a monitor 2way monacor Lowmid PP 12cm and morel MTD37 tweeter. Amplifier Yaqin MC10L and diy discrete RIAA With diy TT with RB300 tone arm and Grado red.
There I did a comparison of dire straights song a thought "ride across the river".
I had it on LP, and CD and made a MP3 from the song on the cd.
Like I already said the quality of spatial sound decreased when switching from LP to CD and from CD to MP3.
My horns are quite big they only disappear when I close my eyes.
Attachments
Last edited:
Thanks David S for the samples ! I listened with my SSSx5 prototype, described here
Elias Pekonen Home Page - Stereophonic Sound from a Single Speaker
....
Conclusion: The sound allways leaves the speaker
- Elias
I listened the first 5 min or so with my SSSx5 prototype. Almost all of the sounds are in the center area, only occasionally something happends at the side but never very side.
What a boring mix !! But on the other hand it represents general trend in studio recordings, they sound artificial.
edit: Ok, I read Rudolfs post again and listened the song after the 5 min also
It's like a different song, there is a nice spread of sounds in in front, even spaciousness is present. I think they mixed the song from two separate recording sessions as one. Shame on them !
That's the way how they make money - Elias
Last edited:
MP3 is like taking off your glasses - everything becomes fuzzy looking, yes. But do the people around you change their positions in space, if you take off your glasses???
My horns are quite big they only disappear when I close my eyes.
Thanks for taking the time, Elias. I know, that song is nothing to rave about, but it happend to have this special quality in my system.Ok, I read Rudolfs post again and listened the song after the 5 min also
Interesting! To me it just sounds like that guitar player had been silent for those 6:20 minutes. I didn't hear any difference in the session acoustics. Probably need to listen again.It's like a different song, there is a nice spread of sounds in in front, even spaciousness is present.
I think they mixed the song from two separate recording sessions as one. Shame on them !
The change in sound is more from 2 dimensional to 3 dimensional. And the size of the soundstage in with and hight decreases. So the people do chance the position a bit due the flatter soundstage with mp3.
With best performance from CD or Lp the instruments become more loose in the air I would say it is because of the better 3D depth in the sound stage.
Hi Elias,
since yours is not the common stereo triangle (60° spread): how far apart were the singer and the piano in your constellation - measured as angle from listening position?
Thanks, understood.
Rudolf
"Tunnel of Love" does indeed lean quite a bit to the right, but I think a lot of that is the dominant guitar on that side, which seems to bring the whole image over. If I try very hard to ignore the guitar, it seems to fall back to even, and then maybe even lean a little left once the other guitars come in.
hey Rudolf how far apart are those room corners measured as angle from listening position? is it that difficult to visualise?
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.