Oh and one more thing. Our little girl turned two years old today! We are having blueberry pancakes for breakfast. Later we will have birthday cake and open presents. If the weather improves we will go to the zoo. I dont think she cares that she is two now, but we have fun celebrating it 
Uriah
Uriah
Yes.... of course folks, i am able to accept, as a possibility, as a chance
That i am unable to perceive subtle (sutil, subtile,sutís) differences...also i can understand that maybe my speaker, my environment, my ambience, my music and my ears are not so good, as i have 57 years old.... also i can accept that maybe other folks have better "trained, skilled, exercised" ears as some people i know tune pianos and have excelent sound memory (they can do that using ears and when they attach instruments they found that have adjusted to the correct tone) about piano sonics... well... i am able to believe that i can be a complete idiot.... this do not surprises me, despite i use to respect them the most i can, i have to say those folks are very exotic!
ahahahahah!
Carlos
That i am unable to perceive subtle (sutil, subtile,sutís) differences...also i can understand that maybe my speaker, my environment, my ambience, my music and my ears are not so good, as i have 57 years old.... also i can accept that maybe other folks have better "trained, skilled, exercised" ears as some people i know tune pianos and have excelent sound memory (they can do that using ears and when they attach instruments they found that have adjusted to the correct tone) about piano sonics... well... i am able to believe that i can be a complete idiot.... this do not surprises me, despite i use to respect them the most i can, i have to say those folks are very exotic!
ahahahahah!
Carlos
One possibility Uriah is the guy trying to add value to his position as engineer
To make some "charm"..... "his eagle eyes will inspect every possible curve that will make electrons drunk and they may return because loose their way to go"
Then, after inspecting he will make a very serious expression and will say that is fine.
ahahahahah.
Carlos
To make some "charm"..... "his eagle eyes will inspect every possible curve that will make electrons drunk and they may return because loose their way to go"
Then, after inspecting he will make a very serious expression and will say that is fine.
ahahahahah.
Carlos
I think his concern was that when you make a sharp point out of a trace it is easier for a short to happen when voltage is very high. Like the sign for a diode where it is easier for the voltage to jump from a point than from a flat plane. I think this was supposed to happen with high voltage and high frequency so he would curve all corners. And yes he liked to use a lot of mystery in his position to make it seem very very important
Uriah
No!... i do not think 50 volts condensers can be used with bigger than 50 volts
But i do think 50 volts condenser can work into 50 volts supplies.... not really needed to put 70 or 80 or 100 volts units.
Just that.
Also i do not suggest people to use underrated parts..... better for them to use overrated parts, of course.
regards,
Carlos
But i do think 50 volts condenser can work into 50 volts supplies.... not really needed to put 70 or 80 or 100 volts units.
Just that.
Also i do not suggest people to use underrated parts..... better for them to use overrated parts, of course.
regards,
Carlos
I was thinking about audio quality and some human behavior about
I think there are people that understands things in a very depressive way .... there are many folks too defeatist, very bitter and catastrophic ... I think that if things happens exactly the way some audiophiles understand sound effect and audio reproduction quality.... the science will be facing serious problems... as mathematics will be facing ghosts, myths, beliefs, magics and all stuf connected to the belief area
This story that audio reproduction depends on numerous things, which combine themselves into a progressive way and in geometric. cataclismic and apocalyptic way, were no hopes will rest for us... some kind of terrorist world where tragedy and comedy works together.
When people say that sounds depends of the combination, the arrangements of parts, the selections or miracle condenser!
I think, if each capacitor has its own characteristic, something magic,alike to humanize and give to each of them human character, as personality, behavior, creating special sounds, combined with the possibility that each resistance may sound different too... and the layout also giving it’s own contribution to the hell, the mess and the confusion... well... no one will never control such kind of things where big magic is dominating and only the ones that have received special super powers will listen some peculiar, some characteristic quality...this seems bewitch things and not a science. the intention and belief to think in a such direction, is going to sound to me as the most absurd of the underworld mythic imagination dark magic of the ancient world....if those things exists..there’s no more space to science... we gonna be under te control, we gonna be dominated by the caótic theories.. where all elements are inter related in a very chaotic way and you will never be able to forecast what will happens in some circuit.
No more technician and Enginners will be able to design amplifiers, and dark black magic will be used to select capacitors, using smoke and offers of those things to the Gods.
I think, the real thing is less complicated... CCS produce this.... Mirror produces that.... electrolitic condensers have memory and may be avoided... good supply filtering helps...but substract of inexistium or unobtanium, in liquid form will not be the solution to create wonderfull amplifiers. things are less complicated and we do not need “the touch of a God” to make things alive...this is mystery and no science .. so dear friends ..... maybe our personal confusion, our inside mess because our non answered questions about life, our frustrations... all those things are pushing us to feel things as caótic...our frustrations may be inducing us to think that combinations, arranges of multiple parts together may sound this or that...the same way life pushes you up and down and give you punches...people that loves you today, may hate you tomorrow...all that dirty we face into our lives are interfering with some audiophiles.... pushing us to to have a chaotic vision of the world, and this because the chaos we have internally in our mind and heart..whem we see love and hate surviving at same time.... figth for peace.... to kill to have peace...to destroy to be good...a lot of things that have no scientific consistence...not scientific, just human foolishes we see, and we let them invade our minds and hearts... The audio amplification cannot be subjected, cannot be dominated by by human ideas about spacial position of microphones... that are in the reality a consequence of our imagination and not a recreation of the position...as into the studio they had many channels and everything is centered.... so, some errors of phase and differences of volume make us understand something more to the rigth or to the left, and all this is mind recreation...an illusion that will be different from people to people and will be different even for you insist to listen the same source for hours and days, and monthes...when you gonna perceive (create in your mind) different positions of instruments... a big illusion that some amplifiers can let you dream... even not sleeping we can delirate about. those feelings and perception or interpretations of those effects understood by us as sound stage ... never existed in the reality, beeing a brain, a mind creation...and do not recreate more than rigth and left, the delays give you some deep...you may perceive movement (the old style stereo demonstration with the train crossing from rigth to left in front of your ears) a mind recreation of something that existed in the reality ... just a recreation of the microphones position resulted of different levels of volume and mixing of channels.
The microphones position re-creation, now a days seems more magic than science... and this feeds some delirant minds to feel themselves better than others and use to apply the old trick to ask you:
“Oh!... couldn’t you perceive?”..
This is more a domination strategy than a science.. this is more a delirant thing that exist in some minds, things that cannot be communicated because was created and generated inside that special brain and no one other can perceive the same.... and this is not posible because many times it is a imagination of the reality...and different from the reality by itself...but a creation inside the mind.... alike a movie produced into a magnificent imaginative mind.
Those sound effects, the sound stage, is so dependable of time, position, mood, ambience, that i give up to listen those things and gone to research more objective things as details of instruments playing, harshing of saxophones, annoying noises from violines... reverberation of bass strings, noises of fingers touching strings...well.... i am searching and researching those things...not trying to decode each particular, peculiar, special brain...as each one of us have our own imaginations and we cannot communicate imaginations..there’s no “cable” to interconnect brain to make you feel, and listen what i am feeling or listening...so...this is something not to study, as we cannot think with other guy’s brain...it is impossible..but we can go in a focused and objective way searching quality by comparison of real instruments playing..and this may be the target to audio research.... well...at least it is for me.
I think, that many dreamers we have into our communitty of audiophiles should land into the safe airport of the real world... stopping their never ending trips to the kingdom of fiction and subjectiveness.
Carlos
I think there are people that understands things in a very depressive way .... there are many folks too defeatist, very bitter and catastrophic ... I think that if things happens exactly the way some audiophiles understand sound effect and audio reproduction quality.... the science will be facing serious problems... as mathematics will be facing ghosts, myths, beliefs, magics and all stuf connected to the belief area
This story that audio reproduction depends on numerous things, which combine themselves into a progressive way and in geometric. cataclismic and apocalyptic way, were no hopes will rest for us... some kind of terrorist world where tragedy and comedy works together.
When people say that sounds depends of the combination, the arrangements of parts, the selections or miracle condenser!
I think, if each capacitor has its own characteristic, something magic,alike to humanize and give to each of them human character, as personality, behavior, creating special sounds, combined with the possibility that each resistance may sound different too... and the layout also giving it’s own contribution to the hell, the mess and the confusion... well... no one will never control such kind of things where big magic is dominating and only the ones that have received special super powers will listen some peculiar, some characteristic quality...this seems bewitch things and not a science. the intention and belief to think in a such direction, is going to sound to me as the most absurd of the underworld mythic imagination dark magic of the ancient world....if those things exists..there’s no more space to science... we gonna be under te control, we gonna be dominated by the caótic theories.. where all elements are inter related in a very chaotic way and you will never be able to forecast what will happens in some circuit.
No more technician and Enginners will be able to design amplifiers, and dark black magic will be used to select capacitors, using smoke and offers of those things to the Gods.
I think, the real thing is less complicated... CCS produce this.... Mirror produces that.... electrolitic condensers have memory and may be avoided... good supply filtering helps...but substract of inexistium or unobtanium, in liquid form will not be the solution to create wonderfull amplifiers. things are less complicated and we do not need “the touch of a God” to make things alive...this is mystery and no science .. so dear friends ..... maybe our personal confusion, our inside mess because our non answered questions about life, our frustrations... all those things are pushing us to feel things as caótic...our frustrations may be inducing us to think that combinations, arranges of multiple parts together may sound this or that...the same way life pushes you up and down and give you punches...people that loves you today, may hate you tomorrow...all that dirty we face into our lives are interfering with some audiophiles.... pushing us to to have a chaotic vision of the world, and this because the chaos we have internally in our mind and heart..whem we see love and hate surviving at same time.... figth for peace.... to kill to have peace...to destroy to be good...a lot of things that have no scientific consistence...not scientific, just human foolishes we see, and we let them invade our minds and hearts... The audio amplification cannot be subjected, cannot be dominated by by human ideas about spacial position of microphones... that are in the reality a consequence of our imagination and not a recreation of the position...as into the studio they had many channels and everything is centered.... so, some errors of phase and differences of volume make us understand something more to the rigth or to the left, and all this is mind recreation...an illusion that will be different from people to people and will be different even for you insist to listen the same source for hours and days, and monthes...when you gonna perceive (create in your mind) different positions of instruments... a big illusion that some amplifiers can let you dream... even not sleeping we can delirate about. those feelings and perception or interpretations of those effects understood by us as sound stage ... never existed in the reality, beeing a brain, a mind creation...and do not recreate more than rigth and left, the delays give you some deep...you may perceive movement (the old style stereo demonstration with the train crossing from rigth to left in front of your ears) a mind recreation of something that existed in the reality ... just a recreation of the microphones position resulted of different levels of volume and mixing of channels.
The microphones position re-creation, now a days seems more magic than science... and this feeds some delirant minds to feel themselves better than others and use to apply the old trick to ask you:
“Oh!... couldn’t you perceive?”..
This is more a domination strategy than a science.. this is more a delirant thing that exist in some minds, things that cannot be communicated because was created and generated inside that special brain and no one other can perceive the same.... and this is not posible because many times it is a imagination of the reality...and different from the reality by itself...but a creation inside the mind.... alike a movie produced into a magnificent imaginative mind.
Those sound effects, the sound stage, is so dependable of time, position, mood, ambience, that i give up to listen those things and gone to research more objective things as details of instruments playing, harshing of saxophones, annoying noises from violines... reverberation of bass strings, noises of fingers touching strings...well.... i am searching and researching those things...not trying to decode each particular, peculiar, special brain...as each one of us have our own imaginations and we cannot communicate imaginations..there’s no “cable” to interconnect brain to make you feel, and listen what i am feeling or listening...so...this is something not to study, as we cannot think with other guy’s brain...it is impossible..but we can go in a focused and objective way searching quality by comparison of real instruments playing..and this may be the target to audio research.... well...at least it is for me.
I think, that many dreamers we have into our communitty of audiophiles should land into the safe airport of the real world... stopping their never ending trips to the kingdom of fiction and subjectiveness.
Carlos
I had not the intention to produce a provocation
The reality is to inform people about my position about all that stuff... and you see that i am doing that in this thread, were my mates are.... people that believe that someone can develop amplifier listening, of course do not believe in magic.... those folks believe in science and hard work applied.
Maybe one or two will feel bad...if this happens i will not figth....guys will post their counter ideas and the subject will finish keeping our positions posted for ethernity.
We are evoluting.....maybe in some years i will change my mind and will be interesting to compare my old ideas with those "future ideas"...to see if i have learned something different of if i would keep that position i have now a days.
I do not guarantee i am rigth, but i can guarantee i cannot listen capacitors, for sure i cannot do that.
Maybe the problem is ME.... why not?
Carlos
The reality is to inform people about my position about all that stuff... and you see that i am doing that in this thread, were my mates are.... people that believe that someone can develop amplifier listening, of course do not believe in magic.... those folks believe in science and hard work applied.
Maybe one or two will feel bad...if this happens i will not figth....guys will post their counter ideas and the subject will finish keeping our positions posted for ethernity.
We are evoluting.....maybe in some years i will change my mind and will be interesting to compare my old ideas with those "future ideas"...to see if i have learned something different of if i would keep that position i have now a days.
I do not guarantee i am rigth, but i can guarantee i cannot listen capacitors, for sure i cannot do that.
Maybe the problem is ME.... why not?
Carlos
Re: I had not the intention to produce a provocation
Hi Carlos,
No I don't think YOU have a problem at all.
I was involved in a reasonably well run ABX testing of a single capacitor in a preamp. While most of people invovled couldn't tell the difference, one lady picked it 8 out of 10 times. Overall the test proved you couldn't pick capacitors...but I'd guess that one lady would strongly disagree. Get the point. I'd say you can't, she would say you can....both right.
regards
destroyer X said:
Hi Carlos,
No I don't think YOU have a problem at all.
I was involved in a reasonably well run ABX testing of a single capacitor in a preamp. While most of people invovled couldn't tell the difference, one lady picked it 8 out of 10 times. Overall the test proved you couldn't pick capacitors...but I'd guess that one lady would strongly disagree. Get the point. I'd say you can't, she would say you can....both right.
regards
Next time flip a switch connected to nothing
And tell loud and clear "This is capacitor A "..... and "This is capacitor B"
You will find people that will perceive differences, others will perceive huge differences, others will perceive small differences and maybe one or two will say sounds the same.
When you produce a test, a comparison, people is prepared to perceive one different... they select the letter they like the most..and them the self illusion takes place.
Stay with your back to them...or stay at their side...do not let them see your eyes or your face expression.
Remember, you gonna have a noisy switch and wires will go out from it...you will be switching a silent micro relay that will replace a Mundorf XPTA by a Black Gate Golden Special Limited Edition.
I have studied 5 years inside the Catholic University, 5 years of Psychology, and i can tell you people is really highly delirating, including myself.
Try that and tell me.... i have made that..... LOL
Carlos
And tell loud and clear "This is capacitor A "..... and "This is capacitor B"
You will find people that will perceive differences, others will perceive huge differences, others will perceive small differences and maybe one or two will say sounds the same.
When you produce a test, a comparison, people is prepared to perceive one different... they select the letter they like the most..and them the self illusion takes place.
Stay with your back to them...or stay at their side...do not let them see your eyes or your face expression.
Remember, you gonna have a noisy switch and wires will go out from it...you will be switching a silent micro relay that will replace a Mundorf XPTA by a Black Gate Golden Special Limited Edition.
I have studied 5 years inside the Catholic University, 5 years of Psychology, and i can tell you people is really highly delirating, including myself.
Try that and tell me.... i have made that..... LOL
Carlos
Attachments
Hi Carlos,
This test was done, double blind, using a switch box that was randomised and automated. It played 10 pieces of different type of music for "x" seconds in a A B X sequence. Most of the normal problems were eliminated IMHO.
This test was far more scientific than you or I usually do, but still not perfect because we only ran it once. After listening to 30 small pieces of music you get bored, very bored.
There were 2 identical preamps with only one capacitor difference. The only problem with the test that I could precieve, was "Can you really have identical preamps". Surely component tolerances would prevent that.
So the at the end of the test, most of us couldn't hear a difference, but one lady picked it 8 out of 10. So most of us would say "You can not hear the difference between capacitor X and capacitor Y" but she would say "Of course you can hear the difference"....both answers are right.
Now on another point, self-delusion. If you "believe" the capacitor X is better than capacitor Y then for you it is true. This is fine and valid as long as you don't force others to believe your delusion.
regards
This test was done, double blind, using a switch box that was randomised and automated. It played 10 pieces of different type of music for "x" seconds in a A B X sequence. Most of the normal problems were eliminated IMHO.
This test was far more scientific than you or I usually do, but still not perfect because we only ran it once. After listening to 30 small pieces of music you get bored, very bored.
There were 2 identical preamps with only one capacitor difference. The only problem with the test that I could precieve, was "Can you really have identical preamps". Surely component tolerances would prevent that.
So the at the end of the test, most of us couldn't hear a difference, but one lady picked it 8 out of 10. So most of us would say "You can not hear the difference between capacitor X and capacitor Y" but she would say "Of course you can hear the difference"....both answers are right.
Now on another point, self-delusion. If you "believe" the capacitor X is better than capacitor Y then for you it is true. This is fine and valid as long as you don't force others to believe your delusion.
regards
Sorry if i was not clever enougth to understand
Just one person, the Lady have perceived differences...and many folks could not perceive... this means to me the differences do not exist and the lady was fooling herself... a mistake, self illusion, she decided by some randomic answer that have matched the "different criteria".... this could change if repeated many times...or the difference was volume and she have detected because of that..... also the difference could be the entire pré amplifier, because of some junction of tollerance of parts... really one could sound different, but not because of the capacitor.
Your conclusion was that...because she could perceive something different, so, there are differences?
Sorry if i am stupid...can you clarify to me, please..... i see...she picked 8 out to 10... this seems she was precise to find that exist differences....but the majority found no difference.... so the difference, if exists is so small that normal humans cannot perceive.... and equipment are not sold to "special humans".... they are sold for generic humans...and they cannot perceive..so... the differences are so small that mathematically you put that to the trash box.
There are special people (8 in whole world) that feel taste with sound.... when listen music, they have taste sensation....so, can we conclude music has taste?.... they are 8...the whole world means billions of humans..... will we take care of the music because it taste?.... alike banish some sound because taste bad?
regards,
Carlos
Just one person, the Lady have perceived differences...and many folks could not perceive... this means to me the differences do not exist and the lady was fooling herself... a mistake, self illusion, she decided by some randomic answer that have matched the "different criteria".... this could change if repeated many times...or the difference was volume and she have detected because of that..... also the difference could be the entire pré amplifier, because of some junction of tollerance of parts... really one could sound different, but not because of the capacitor.
Your conclusion was that...because she could perceive something different, so, there are differences?
Sorry if i am stupid...can you clarify to me, please..... i see...she picked 8 out to 10... this seems she was precise to find that exist differences....but the majority found no difference.... so the difference, if exists is so small that normal humans cannot perceive.... and equipment are not sold to "special humans".... they are sold for generic humans...and they cannot perceive..so... the differences are so small that mathematically you put that to the trash box.
There are special people (8 in whole world) that feel taste with sound.... when listen music, they have taste sensation....so, can we conclude music has taste?.... they are 8...the whole world means billions of humans..... will we take care of the music because it taste?.... alike banish some sound because taste bad?
regards,
Carlos
Hi Carlos,
I think we understand each other, but are drawing different conclusions from the facts. Which is my point.
She was not deluding herself, with the setup we were using this was not possible, but it definitely could have been just a random error. If the test was repeated many more times then we could determine that. The volume was adjusted correctly, if it wasn't we would have all been able to detect a difference.
Now what if the difference was only occurring about 20KHz and she was the only one in the room with hearing capable of hearing it. That could explain it. Also, because we were using 10 different pieces of music, just maybe, only 8 of them have high frequency components, so in fact she may have been right 100% of the time and guessed wrong 2 times. Who knows?
As I said earlier, this ABX test was better than most I have read about , but if you think about it in detail, it could have been flawed. It makes a mockery of our basic tests we do in our lounge rooms but having said that I agree with one of your earlier remarks:
"Do not believe in me...TEST THOSE THINGS!"
Synaesthesia is very interesting, they might be able to smell the different between capactiors.
Maybe we should stop this nosense and get back on topic.
regards
I think we understand each other, but are drawing different conclusions from the facts. Which is my point.
She was not deluding herself, with the setup we were using this was not possible, but it definitely could have been just a random error. If the test was repeated many more times then we could determine that. The volume was adjusted correctly, if it wasn't we would have all been able to detect a difference.
Now what if the difference was only occurring about 20KHz and she was the only one in the room with hearing capable of hearing it. That could explain it. Also, because we were using 10 different pieces of music, just maybe, only 8 of them have high frequency components, so in fact she may have been right 100% of the time and guessed wrong 2 times. Who knows?
As I said earlier, this ABX test was better than most I have read about , but if you think about it in detail, it could have been flawed. It makes a mockery of our basic tests we do in our lounge rooms but having said that I agree with one of your earlier remarks:
"Do not believe in me...TEST THOSE THINGS!"
Synaesthesia is very interesting, they might be able to smell the different between capactiors.
Maybe we should stop this nosense and get back on topic.
regards
You are free to give up this matter, but i am still interested
a pitty you perceive that as non sense when you came to comment all that stuff...so...this have moved you.
I would love to be convinced the opposite, because i could install some fashion parts in my Precision and other amplifiers...but first i have to perceive the difference.... uops!>.. only female can listen 20 Kilohertz...heheheheh.
regards,
Carlos
a pitty you perceive that as non sense when you came to comment all that stuff...so...this have moved you.
I would love to be convinced the opposite, because i could install some fashion parts in my Precision and other amplifiers...but first i have to perceive the difference.... uops!>.. only female can listen 20 Kilohertz...heheheheh.
regards,
Carlos
Subjectivism
Hi Carlos
Carlos
I would never have believed that you and Douglas Self, like many other audio engineers, had in common such a closed mind on subjectivism. We all know how well Douglas Self's amplifiers measure, but many people including yourself, have commented on how bland and unexciting they sound. If we all thought that way, there would never be SACD/DVD-A players, or high resolution sound formats such as 24bit 96 KHZ. What is the point ? Only dogs, cats, and bats, can hear those frequencies !
The fact is, that even people older than you, even with damaged hearing, may be able to be aware of the existence or absence, of much higher frequencies than 20KHZ. The upper harmonics, even as high as the 8th harmonic in some cases, help convey the differences between instruments and the "air" between them.
I understand that it is the rise and fall times of these waveforms that the human ear responds to.
On the subject of "Audio" capacitors, such as the specialised expensive types, there is indeed a change in perceived sound quality , when they are used as supply reservoir capacitors, as they become fully "formed"
I have attached a short note from a post I made in Rock Grotto Audio Forum, about a new Voyager Headphone Amplifier, which was designed by Graham Slee from GSP Audio.
"the Voyager is the best surprise. What a sound! "
"but IMO the Voyager needs a mega burn in period."
Miguel
Yes, it is a surprise package. Like you, although I now only have about 70 hours up, I also have noticed large changes and up/down during burn in. I presume it is due to the particular electrolytic capacitors used ?.... SandyK
Hi Carlos
Carlos
I would never have believed that you and Douglas Self, like many other audio engineers, had in common such a closed mind on subjectivism. We all know how well Douglas Self's amplifiers measure, but many people including yourself, have commented on how bland and unexciting they sound. If we all thought that way, there would never be SACD/DVD-A players, or high resolution sound formats such as 24bit 96 KHZ. What is the point ? Only dogs, cats, and bats, can hear those frequencies !
The fact is, that even people older than you, even with damaged hearing, may be able to be aware of the existence or absence, of much higher frequencies than 20KHZ. The upper harmonics, even as high as the 8th harmonic in some cases, help convey the differences between instruments and the "air" between them.
I understand that it is the rise and fall times of these waveforms that the human ear responds to.
On the subject of "Audio" capacitors, such as the specialised expensive types, there is indeed a change in perceived sound quality , when they are used as supply reservoir capacitors, as they become fully "formed"
I have attached a short note from a post I made in Rock Grotto Audio Forum, about a new Voyager Headphone Amplifier, which was designed by Graham Slee from GSP Audio.
"the Voyager is the best surprise. What a sound! "
"but IMO the Voyager needs a mega burn in period."
Miguel
Yes, it is a surprise package. Like you, although I now only have about 70 hours up, I also have noticed large changes and up/down during burn in. I presume it is due to the particular electrolytic capacitors used ?.... SandyK
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