Miles Prower said:
I believe this was mentioned before, some time ago. The process appears to kill many tubes, probably with substandard vacuum, internal connections, etc. How much of the quality is the fact that only the best tubes (with the highest specs) survive the treatment, and how much is caused due to the process. You would have to have hard before and after data for a sample of tubes that make it through the whole way. A lot of testing to do? Yes, but it would give solid proof in numbers of a substantial improvement. It also may prove that it is simply a fancy way of picking only the very best tubes, too.
Zap said:
This is another consideration, and would account for the survivors having less noise and microphonics. I can also see another factor at work here. Drop the temp, and the adsorption of getter material improves. This, at least temporarily, hardens the vacuum. That, too, could improve sonic performance. But by how much, and for how long: those are the questions.
SY said:
The Black Sable FAQ states, "We do accept tubes to be treated from our customers."
SY, do you have some tubes you could send to be cryo'd? You could measure them before and after. If you offered to send your own tubes, there would be no reason for BS to refuse to perform the test at no cost. That is unless they're afraid of what the results might, or might not, show.
OTOH, if the independent data ended up supporting their claims, they would end up with a valuable marketing tool!
I'd be happy to provide the tubes, do all the documentation (before and after measurement, comparative listening) so that there's no question about "cherry picking." But from what Bill tells me, the expense is in the treatment, not the tubes.
I can't imagine a vendor thinking, "Hey, I think I'll do a freebie for some obscure guy that no-one's ever heard of and that has no engineering credentials and trust my reputation to what he says," but still, if you can convince anyone selling these tubes to participate, I'll use the test jig I put together for the Pearl tubes (piezo exciter for microphonics, noise floor, linearity) and see if there's anything going on there. But the test has to be structured fairly (I characterize the untreated tubes, code them, send a random sample to the treater, keep half back, then compare test groups).
I can't imagine a vendor thinking, "Hey, I think I'll do a freebie for some obscure guy that no-one's ever heard of and that has no engineering credentials and trust my reputation to what he says," but still, if you can convince anyone selling these tubes to participate, I'll use the test jig I put together for the Pearl tubes (piezo exciter for microphonics, noise floor, linearity) and see if there's anything going on there. But the test has to be structured fairly (I characterize the untreated tubes, code them, send a random sample to the treater, keep half back, then compare test groups).
SY said:
Oh, come on ... You're not obscure!
Hey! I have another idea. Let's invite them to participate in the next Burning Amp Festival so we can structure a blind A/B session for the masses to decide! From what I've read, the alleged improvement should be clear for all to hear. It would be a great opportunity for the snake oil ... er, I mean cryogenecists to silence the "naysayers" once and for all!
That's really not true. A lot of audiophiles would be willing to do long term double blind or ABX tests in their own homes with their own equipment with their favorite music over a period of several months. The problem is finding someone who would be willing to properly set up and monitor such tests using a suitable number of different subjects spread over a large area. What "scientist" is willing to deal with those kinds of logistics? If you delve deeply into the issue you'll find, as with most situations, the debate is often not over results but CONTROL.
John
Hi,
I had a quick read on the black sable FAQ site.
It is always amazing, how, over the years, sales pitch and reviews have used an abundant colorful language to say not much!
In fact, that's the territory of politicians: the art of saying nothing at all.
I do not believe cryo can bring anything good. I am concerned that the dilation of the pin material and glass will lead to vacuum leaks.
One of these days, they will turn around and start heat treating the VTs. You watch.
I had a quick read on the black sable FAQ site.
It is always amazing, how, over the years, sales pitch and reviews have used an abundant colorful language to say not much!
In fact, that's the territory of politicians: the art of saying nothing at all.
I do not believe cryo can bring anything good. I am concerned that the dilation of the pin material and glass will lead to vacuum leaks.
One of these days, they will turn around and start heat treating the VTs. You watch.
Hi,
Here is my 20 cents worth. I was working on an amp design that used EF86. I had a bunch of Russian tubes and some Teles. Do I need to tell you which were better?
In fact I think the Russian EF86 is an awful tube and close to garbage. Anyway out of curiosity I got some Cryo Russian EF86. Were they as good as the Teles? No they were not but they were a big step up from the standard Russian stuff but it was the same tube....
Cheers,
Anthony
Here is my 20 cents worth. I was working on an amp design that used EF86. I had a bunch of Russian tubes and some Teles. Do I need to tell you which were better?
In fact I think the Russian EF86 is an awful tube and close to garbage. Anyway out of curiosity I got some Cryo Russian EF86. Were they as good as the Teles? No they were not but they were a big step up from the standard Russian stuff but it was the same tube....
Cheers,
Anthony
Yes I agree and I hope it will continue that way otherwise some Russian tubes would be sold for the price that they really deserve. It is amazing really that still you could get quality tubes for such a low price that most Russian tubes sell for, at least if you buy them directly from Russia.
Prejudice is often good for people who don't suffer from it.
Regards Hans
bigwill said:
There may be a reason for that. There have been some awful quality Russian copies of Western valves (EF86, EL84 etc) sold in the Western market. Conversely, when the Russians made their own designs, for their own use (and when the quality control commissar was on duty), they made some excellent valves (6C45 springs to mind). Two entirely different manufacturing scenarios.
nhuwar said:
To nip this one in the bud, for example I suggest reading the glass strain notes (section K) on the Tung-Sol 5687 tube on Franks tube data site.
Assuming the same glass quality is used (not sure about this), according to the Tung-Sol test, dunking tubes into boiling water then quenching them in cold water should have no effect.
The cryo treatment which everyone is rabbling about as I see it is just another QA test. Nothing else.
richj
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