J F LTI (you do the math)
OK - who amongst the doubting Thomas' have actually listened to a cryo-treated anything ?
Measure all you like, it still might not tell you anything.
Cryo treatment is not unknown to high performance auto parts tweakers, and I can't help but imagine the combination of operating temperatures and pressures just might be a more hostile environment than any audio amplifier any of us have ever built.
OK - who amongst the doubting Thomas' have actually listened to a cryo-treated anything ?
Measure all you like, it still might not tell you anything.
Cryo treatment is not unknown to high performance auto parts tweakers, and I can't help but imagine the combination of operating temperatures and pressures just might be a more hostile environment than any audio amplifier any of us have ever built.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but over at www.decware.com, the forum members organized a group buy of cryoed tubes. The overall impression is that the cryoed tubes sound much better, although very few have been burnt in.
Here is a link:
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=General;action=display;num=1129355381;start=165
the actuall evaluations don't begin till page 12 so the link puts you there.
Steve Dekert is the owner and operator of Decware and seems to have his head on straight.
Here is a link:
http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=General;action=display;num=1129355381;start=165
the actuall evaluations don't begin till page 12 so the link puts you there.
Steve Dekert is the owner and operator of Decware and seems to have his head on straight.
Awarded to the moderators of diyAudio in light of meritorious duty performed in the "Cryogenically Frozen valves" arena and the Battle of "Interconnect cables! Lies and myths!", the George Cross: "For an act of the greatest heroism or of the most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme danger. Awarded primarily to civilians."
Well done gentlemen, we salute you!
Well done gentlemen, we salute you!
Attachments
Firstly, I am not a tube expert by any means, and I cannot tell you whether cryo-treating works or not. However, I have personally met Bill Perkins and can attest that he is a very nice, intelligent, and rational person. I have seen and heard some of his earlier work with speakers, and I was very impressed. He appears to be a careful and studious researcher, just the type of person I would want to see working in these areas of research. Based on these past experiences of mine, I would conclude that his current work with freezing and treating tubes is probably a real and valid process for improving them. However, it should be remembered that the freezing is only one step in the process, and so is not the only reason for the improvements noted.
I can certainly understand his reaction to criticism from others who have opinions but no experience with this process, as I have seen it in others who have been subjected to similar attacks. It does get very frustrating after a while.
As far as snake oil goes, my own philosophy is to stay away from anything that is shrouded in secrecy. If you tell me that this stone will make my speakers sound better if placed on top, but you will not tell me what actual material is causing this change and why, then I will discount it without even bothering to listen. However, this is NOT the case with cryo treatments, as we are told almost _exactly_ what the process is, anyone with the time and inkling could reproduce the process and compare for themselves. So I have another reason to not be totally sceptical. I would be happy to compare some treated and untreated valves myself, but seeing that the only tube gear that I currently use is an ARC SP9 MKII, I don't think that it would be a fair test.
Just for the record, I have never purchased anything from Bill and I am not a personal friend of his (I only met him a couple of times), so I don't believe that I am biased in my assessment of his work. At any rate, if there are some measurements and testing to be done in the near future, then why not reserve naysaying until the results have been shown?
Take care,
Doug
I can certainly understand his reaction to criticism from others who have opinions but no experience with this process, as I have seen it in others who have been subjected to similar attacks. It does get very frustrating after a while.
As far as snake oil goes, my own philosophy is to stay away from anything that is shrouded in secrecy. If you tell me that this stone will make my speakers sound better if placed on top, but you will not tell me what actual material is causing this change and why, then I will discount it without even bothering to listen. However, this is NOT the case with cryo treatments, as we are told almost _exactly_ what the process is, anyone with the time and inkling could reproduce the process and compare for themselves. So I have another reason to not be totally sceptical. I would be happy to compare some treated and untreated valves myself, but seeing that the only tube gear that I currently use is an ARC SP9 MKII, I don't think that it would be a fair test.
Just for the record, I have never purchased anything from Bill and I am not a personal friend of his (I only met him a couple of times), so I don't believe that I am biased in my assessment of his work. At any rate, if there are some measurements and testing to be done in the near future, then why not reserve naysaying until the results have been shown?
Take care,
Doug
This post says it all. I want to draw attention to the part that says little experience with audio:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=636083#post636083
First rate audio (I have a LOT of experience) is full of all kinds of surprises. Things that don't work as described don't last long in the world of first-class systems.
John
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=636083#post636083
First rate audio (I have a LOT of experience) is full of all kinds of surprises. Things that don't work as described don't last long in the world of first-class systems.
John
Dave,
I don't know but 100hrs seems like a hell of a long time to 'enhance' the vacuum of the tube.
Given the volume, 1 hr on a turbopump should be plenty. However, I seriously doubt they are actually breaking the vacuum, then again maybe they are. That may account for high reject ratio.
Looking forward to reading the full measurement report.
I don't know but 100hrs seems like a hell of a long time to 'enhance' the vacuum of the tube.
Given the volume, 1 hr on a turbopump should be plenty. However, I seriously doubt they are actually breaking the vacuum, then again maybe they are. That may account for high reject ratio.
Looking forward to reading the full measurement report.
chrisb, if the mechanism claimed is correct (stress annealing), this should absolutely show up in measurments. I built a little jig that measures distortion and noise under mechanical excitation.
Compare and contrast- the Magic Chip guy offers nothing but BS explanations and will not allow his stuff to be independently tested. The cryo guys are, by contrast, willing to work with me on this. After talking with Bill, I'm quite convinced that he's smart and sincere- that doesn't mean he's right, but he's not a crook. And if he IS right, well, that's a nice thing to know.
Compare and contrast- the Magic Chip guy offers nothing but BS explanations and will not allow his stuff to be independently tested. The cryo guys are, by contrast, willing to work with me on this. After talking with Bill, I'm quite convinced that he's smart and sincere- that doesn't mean he's right, but he's not a crook. And if he IS right, well, that's a nice thing to know.
Morgan Jones wrote a nice article about this, finding that some time in the oven measurably and dramatically improved some NOS tubes.
Has anyone measured the working temperatures of different tubes? Don't some tubes run close to 300 deg and therefore improve upon warm up over a cold unused tube?
There is no doubt in my mind that the cryo process would have an effect on a tube based on the changes I have seen in mechanical parts.
I do however question the price which I feel is well beyond the grasp of most of us. If I could get my hands on cryo tubes for say
$50 over the tube cost I would go for it. There is a cryo place within 15 miles of my home and I will contact them to see if they would be willing to do some tubes. They charged $100 to do some car parts.
Has anyone measured the working temperatures of different tubes? Don't some tubes run close to 300 deg and therefore improve upon warm up over a cold unused tube?
There is no doubt in my mind that the cryo process would have an effect on a tube based on the changes I have seen in mechanical parts.
I do however question the price which I feel is well beyond the grasp of most of us. If I could get my hands on cryo tubes for say
$50 over the tube cost I would go for it. There is a cryo place within 15 miles of my home and I will contact them to see if they would be willing to do some tubes. They charged $100 to do some car parts.
In the world of serious (very high dollar) auto racing especially in classes where everyone is required to run with the same equipment, racers look for every little advantage no matter how minute. Cryo treating, heat treating, shot peening, and micro polishing are all means to remove stresses that are inherent in metal parts. When you are asking these parts to work at extreme power levels, and race engines can cost upwards of $100,000 each, these things make sense.
In the last 10 years auto racing has become a seriously high tech enviornment where everything is data logged, modeled to the Nth degree and scienced out. Horsepower levels and engine reliability have increased dramatically because of it. This technology has trickled down to the average family car. Believe it or not, the cars that are available today have more power, and are faster than any of the muscle cars of the 60's and 70's, with smaller more efficient engines.
I am sure that the mega dollar NASCAR and NHRA race teams have all of the data you would ever want to see, but they are more secretive than the NSA. The fact that shops that treat parts are numerous and growing shows that it works.
In the last 10 years auto racing has become a seriously high tech enviornment where everything is data logged, modeled to the Nth degree and scienced out. Horsepower levels and engine reliability have increased dramatically because of it. This technology has trickled down to the average family car. Believe it or not, the cars that are available today have more power, and are faster than any of the muscle cars of the 60's and 70's, with smaller more efficient engines.
I am sure that the mega dollar NASCAR and NHRA race teams have all of the data you would ever want to see, but they are more secretive than the NSA. The fact that shops that treat parts are numerous and growing shows that it works.
I don't know. Not breaking the vacuum and not heating over 350C wouldn't do much IMO. A few days of normal use would sublimate enough filament and reintroduce the stress in the inner workings of the tube so that after a great sounding demo everything to go back to the way it was before.
The whole procedure is definitely a good way to pick apart good tubes from bad tubes. Definitely tubes that can go through the treatment naturally sound better because they had better vacuum, they were annealed better in production, and they had better pin-to-glass interface.
The whole procedure is definitely a good way to pick apart good tubes from bad tubes. Definitely tubes that can go through the treatment naturally sound better because they had better vacuum, they were annealed better in production, and they had better pin-to-glass interface.
Al, excellent point. There are world-class athletes who spend fortunes on things like magnetic bracelets that have NO evidence of efficacy. I've been searching for hard data on annealing effects from cryo (it seems counterintuitive, since annealing is an Arrhenius process)) and so far have found zip.
Reading posts here won't tell you whether cryo'ed tubes offer an improvement or not; I haven't read anything yet from anyone who has tried them. I'm not going to say anything at all about them because I haven't tried myself. But I'm not going to rant against people who have tried them and are pleased with the results or call the supplier a charlatan, because I've never met these people. Who's this guy Elliot? What makes him so good? What is your hi-fi rig composed of? What experiences do you have? You sound like the virgin who knows good sex from bad because he's read Playboy magazine.
John
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.