What the cooking does is activate the getter to remove any residual gas that has been liberated from the internal structure over time. Though minute quantities, they can harm the cathode during operation through bombardment. I think the primary goal for cooking tubes is increasing longevity of increasingly more expensive NOS tubes. I don't know what the effect of cryo treatment is on tubes; it is probably something different alltogether.
Just because a person's explanation of how a process works is flawed doesn't preclude that such a process doesn't take place.
John
pinkmouse said:
LN is cheaper than gas (which is cheaper than milk or bottled water). The LN part adds little cost, the equipment to use it properly is a significant capital cost... one slip-up and you can end up with a batch of shattered glass & twisted metal (and being a trail-blazer Bill had to find this out the hard way). The labour intensive part -- doing the pins & individually measuring and grading each part -- is what costs the most money.
(Note: i am speaking from my own conclusions based on been shown the process involved -- multiply that by flat after flat of tubes in process and Bill is a busy boy)
dave
I commend Mr. BP for his willingness to submit his product to third party testing. This is proper.
I commend who ever brought up the idea of reenergizing the getter. I guess this amount of labor and expense, the cryo processing, must only be worthy of NOS tubes. Why the knee jerk supposition that new tubes cannot be built as good as old tubes is a bit unreasonable.
I agree totally with Amperex... at least in one regard, a cryo treatment seems like torture. The TCE's for pin metal and tube glass are not dead matches... neither function is linear... and the functions do not track. The pin/button interface is one area where residual stress should be preserved.
On a curious note, in the 12 odd years that Mr. BP spent developing his process... there should have been a spare 12 hours, or 12 days, to pop off some measurements. Was the development of his process entirely guided by ear alone?
The most hardheaded of scientists will not fault another for the the difficulties involved with measurements. Most all would "kick another's **s" for never taking any.
Perhaps his tagline should be, "Developed by golden ears, for golden ears".
I commend who ever brought up the idea of reenergizing the getter. I guess this amount of labor and expense, the cryo processing, must only be worthy of NOS tubes. Why the knee jerk supposition that new tubes cannot be built as good as old tubes is a bit unreasonable.
I agree totally with Amperex... at least in one regard, a cryo treatment seems like torture. The TCE's for pin metal and tube glass are not dead matches... neither function is linear... and the functions do not track. The pin/button interface is one area where residual stress should be preserved.
On a curious note, in the 12 odd years that Mr. BP spent developing his process... there should have been a spare 12 hours, or 12 days, to pop off some measurements. Was the development of his process entirely guided by ear alone?
The most hardheaded of scientists will not fault another for the the difficulties involved with measurements. Most all would "kick another's **s" for never taking any.
Perhaps his tagline should be, "Developed by golden ears, for golden ears".
Wow, I haven't been around long enough! Nothing like a good fight. "Things that don't work as described don't last long in the world of first-class systems." High-larious. The BP-is-a-nice-knowledgeable-guy-so-his-products-must-be-good theory was a close second. Reminds me of cold fusion. If it looks like a duck...
SY said:
WHUDDA SURPRISE!
Two years ago, all that talk of doing actual tests sure did scare that guy off in a hurry.
BTW, that outfit has a new name: "Black Sable" You can see the corporate logo Here. The letters "BS" inside the outline of a nine pin mini type.
Truth in advertising?
A Freudian slip?
A joke on the audiophools?
Because it sure is BS (and I don't mean Black Sable either
)
CarlyBoy said:
There's lots more where that came from. Magical gunk that you put on transistors and ICs to make solid state amps sound just like hollow state amps (Tube-o-lator) some other goop you put on the cones of your speeks (C-37) $580 volume control knobs, $7000 volume controls, magical "stones" you put on your speeks, on the OPTs, special clip-on versions for your cables -- it goes on and on. All sorts of audio accessories going for $eriously BIG BUX and not a single shread of data anywhere in sight.
Welcome to the wonderful world of audiophoolery.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Just couple of words about cryo treatment.
Cryo treatment is also called negative quenching and it has substantial influence of increasing properties of steels. There is quite a bit of scientific studies and proof for this. The improvement is in strength, fatigue life and electrical conductivity due to change in crystal structure.
There is no proof that the same mechanisms work in aluminium and copper. I personally did some test with aluminium parts and there was no change what so ever. The cryo treatment I am talking about is cooling down to 10K (-263C) and repeating that for 5 or 6 times.
Whether it does anything to valves I do not know.
Cryo treatment is also called negative quenching and it has substantial influence of increasing properties of steels. There is quite a bit of scientific studies and proof for this. The improvement is in strength, fatigue life and electrical conductivity due to change in crystal structure.
There is no proof that the same mechanisms work in aluminium and copper. I personally did some test with aluminium parts and there was no change what so ever. The cryo treatment I am talking about is cooling down to 10K (-263C) and repeating that for 5 or 6 times.
Whether it does anything to valves I do not know.
What I am lacking when it comes to peculiar tweaks is a theory of what happens and figures that shows that something happened.
I often see that there's kind of filosophy behind a tweak or device but as often the designer has missed the various laws of thermodynamics or the use of Kirchoff's laws or the law of gravity or how fotons counteract with matter. I normally don't tweak or go for "special treated" components or add-ons, but if I notice that the theory collides with reality - why bother buying, trying, testing?!
In a case like this it is important to be sure what happens and if the effects are permanent or temporary.
And finally - if it is obvious that a trick doesn't work the way the designer says, maybe because it violates the laws of gravity, why bother trying and testing. I often hear people speak in favour for tweaks, saying that "Maybe it works in another way". So why buy something extremely expensive that doesn't work as stated, but maybe in some different way?
I often see that there's kind of filosophy behind a tweak or device but as often the designer has missed the various laws of thermodynamics or the use of Kirchoff's laws or the law of gravity or how fotons counteract with matter. I normally don't tweak or go for "special treated" components or add-ons, but if I notice that the theory collides with reality - why bother buying, trying, testing?!
In a case like this it is important to be sure what happens and if the effects are permanent or temporary.
And finally - if it is obvious that a trick doesn't work the way the designer says, maybe because it violates the laws of gravity, why bother trying and testing. I often hear people speak in favour for tweaks, saying that "Maybe it works in another way". So why buy something extremely expensive that doesn't work as stated, but maybe in some different way?
Well, soundbrigade, that's been the problem all along. You can go to the BS Site FAQ where you will see some very specific claims. Amoung these, that the BS tubes have lower noise floors, and reduced microphonics. These are claims that ought to be easily measured, before and after. As it was two years ago, there is no such documentation to be found.
Stuff like this doesn't instill a whole lot of confidence in their integrity:
This is a steaming, stinking pile of blacksable.
I would object much less if they'd simply say that they have a process that they believe improves the sonics of various VTs. They don't understand exactly what happens, but they are sure enough that the effect is genuine that they'll offer satisfaction guaranteed, or your money back.
They don't do that either.
If you want me to pay some $200 for a 12AU7, you're going to have to do more convincing. A lot more convincing. And don't insult my intelligence; you won't get on my good side that way.
Stuff like this doesn't instill a whole lot of confidence in their integrity:
This is a steaming, stinking pile of blacksable.
I would object much less if they'd simply say that they have a process that they believe improves the sonics of various VTs. They don't understand exactly what happens, but they are sure enough that the effect is genuine that they'll offer satisfaction guaranteed, or your money back.
They don't do that either.
If you want me to pay some $200 for a 12AU7, you're going to have to do more convincing. A lot more convincing. And don't insult my intelligence; you won't get on my good side that way.
The truth and you can look this up on the web is cyro treating does remove minute stresses in the crystal lattice of metals.
These deformities will be concitrated in area's of bending.
Will this change the conductivity of the metals? I don't know off hand, it depends on the metal alloy and if the alloying elements are interstitially bonded in the lattice.
The reason I said I don't know is because I don't know the specific alloys used. You could prove or disprover the cyro treating phenomenon but having 2 of the same tubes 1 cryo treated and 1 not. Then you would have to break the tube open and take samples from the exact same areas" cutting them out with a method that would not induce any stress on it say a low speed diamond saw".
Then using a test method called x ray diffraction could compare the crystalline structure.
These would test with out a doubt, does cyro treating do anything.
The is not an assumption on my part, I have worked in the feild of metallurgy in the lab for over 10 years.
And metal is metal, all changes are visible in the crystalline structure period. If it's not there then there is NO I MEAN NO changes.....................................
I'm not tring to be forceful because there very well could be changes that take place.
I'm just saying if there is these chages can be quantified.
Cyro treating is a used thermal treating process for metal stress relieving but it depends on the metal though.
Nick
These deformities will be concitrated in area's of bending.
Will this change the conductivity of the metals? I don't know off hand, it depends on the metal alloy and if the alloying elements are interstitially bonded in the lattice.
The reason I said I don't know is because I don't know the specific alloys used. You could prove or disprover the cyro treating phenomenon but having 2 of the same tubes 1 cryo treated and 1 not. Then you would have to break the tube open and take samples from the exact same areas" cutting them out with a method that would not induce any stress on it say a low speed diamond saw".
Then using a test method called x ray diffraction could compare the crystalline structure.
These would test with out a doubt, does cyro treating do anything.
The is not an assumption on my part, I have worked in the feild of metallurgy in the lab for over 10 years.
And metal is metal, all changes are visible in the crystalline structure period. If it's not there then there is NO I MEAN NO changes.....................................
I'm not tring to be forceful because there very well could be changes that take place.
I'm just saying if there is these chages can be quantified.
Cyro treating is a used thermal treating process for metal stress relieving but it depends on the metal though.
Nick
This thread is about cry-processed tubes, but I still want to shortly make an offtopic comment.
I once in a Swedish forum asked (in two forums actually - both Swedish) asked how people reacted when they came to confront "stuff" that in one way or another violated laws of nature or lacked some kind of documented effct.
In one forum the answers were brief - "Why bother?? If it doesn't work, why care to go further??". The other forum closed the discussions after two people had really freaked out (and been really hostile against me for asking that kind of question) and pointed on the fact (sic!) that things may have other effects than those stated in the ads...
SO, returning to topic - what happens to the various details in a tube when it is cooled. Anmd what happens when it is heated again.
Things requiring special mechanical qualities are annealed - which means heating and cooling. This has been discussed before in this thread - but in this case I don't see that anyone is processing the tubes in a cycling mode.
I once in a Swedish forum asked (in two forums actually - both Swedish) asked how people reacted when they came to confront "stuff" that in one way or another violated laws of nature or lacked some kind of documented effct.
In one forum the answers were brief - "Why bother?? If it doesn't work, why care to go further??". The other forum closed the discussions after two people had really freaked out (and been really hostile against me for asking that kind of question) and pointed on the fact (sic!) that things may have other effects than those stated in the ads...
SO, returning to topic - what happens to the various details in a tube when it is cooled. Anmd what happens when it is heated again.
Things requiring special mechanical qualities are annealed - which means heating and cooling. This has been discussed before in this thread - but in this case I don't see that anyone is processing the tubes in a cycling mode.
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